The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Smallholding => Renewables => Topic started by: Womble on July 19, 2013, 10:55:28 pm

Title: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Womble on July 19, 2013, 10:55:28 pm
Hi Folks,

Our house heating is currently provided by a coal fired Esse stove (Rayburn type thingy). However, seeing as it's hideously inefficient, we're looking at adding a multi-fuel boiler stove to the circuit, such as the Dunsley Highlander 10:

(http://www.fireplaceproducts.co.uk/images/P/dunsley_highlander_10_multifuel_stove.jpg)

The trouble is, whilst  I can buy this stove online (http://www.leedsstovecentre.co.uk/traditional-stoves/dunsley-highlander-10-multifuel--woodburning-boiler-stove/) for £1600, including VAT I've now had two prices back from local installers which each come to around £8,000 including VAT.

This is made up of:

Stove: £1900
Chimney Lining: £1200
Chimwrap insulation £550
Stove installation (unboxing it and connecting up the flue pipe! :o ) £1200
Plumbing, basic controls and heat leak radiator £3250
Hearth - Not included

Grand total £8,100 including VAT  :o :o :o , which is totally out of the question.

So, given that all the bits can be bought for a fraction of this price, I'm trying to work out if I can do a DIY install of one of these beasties.  Of course all of the installer's websites say that this is a terrible, dangerous idea, etc etc, but they would say that, wouldn't they!!

So, I wondered if any TAS folks had undertaken this work themselves in the past. I'm fairly handy, have a good knowledge of the plumbing and control side of things, and a friend who isn't scared of heights  ;D . In particular, if you have done this before, how did it go with building control?  (note, we're in Scotland, which I believe has different requirements to England with respect to installers).

Thanks in advance for your help!

Womble.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Mammyshaz on July 20, 2013, 12:31:10 am
The work is very easy if you are not afraid of heights ( unlike OH ).  The quality of lining is what determines the price.  The lining is dropped into place down the chimney. There is a good website who can help with measurements etc. which I will try to link for you. We bought our stove and a few bits through them but have held off the install. Mainly due to OH understanding air flow for extractors being a gas engineer but in England unless installed by a HETAS engineer you now need planning consent  :o  :o

If you don't get PP or install by a HETAS engineer then your house insurance is void!

Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Mammyshaz on July 20, 2013, 12:35:50 am
http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/wood_burning_stoves/Firefox-8-stoves.html (http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/wood_burning_stoves/Firefox-8-stoves.html)

Hope this woke. This is the web site that heed me. Their response to my questions were prompt and the help with regulations is great.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: spandit on July 20, 2013, 08:03:22 am
You need building regs approval, section J. You can download this from several stove websites
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: henchard on July 20, 2013, 08:48:22 am
You need building regs approval, section J. You can download this from several stove websites


Technically yes, but if you don't tell them how are they going to know and as far as I know they cannot enforce anything retrospectively after 6 months.


Have you considered a stove with a room sealed air inlet to avoid having to have cold air entering the room for ventilation? We installed one and it's very good.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: spandit on July 20, 2013, 09:15:00 am
Above a certain kW output you need a dedicated room vent - you'd jeopardise your home insurance, saleability and health if you skipped this step
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: colliewobbles on July 20, 2013, 09:35:21 am
We have a 10KW one not connected to our heating - and wouldn't go near self-install having seen what our engineer/plumber had to do for the installation.  Our flue liner cost £800 for a straight run up to the roof as it's very important 'stuff'!!  All the comments about HETAS are correct and we have a certificate of installation should we wish to sell or rent.

Looking at the possibility of self-install - my brother-in -law did exactly what you are suggesting.  They now have to run off the hot water if it gets too hot otherwise risk some kind of catastrophic event with the system!  Also - their vent pipe is on view as they had no chimney -one night my sister woke to see it glowing red.  The other end had caught fire slightly and the fire brigade had to be called who said it was a very close call, another half hour and the whole lot would have gone up.

Our installation cost £4000 about 4 years ago, the burner was £1900, flue liner £800 and the rest was labour including knocking our a chimney area and making good so I don't think your quote is out of the way to be honest.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: colliewobbles on July 20, 2013, 09:37:17 am
Oh yeah - the installation does seem rather high at £1200 but they do weigh an absolute ton, took 4 men to get ours into position.  If yours is also connection to heating system I guess that why it's high.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: henchard on July 20, 2013, 11:42:06 am
Above a certain kW output you need a dedicated room vent - you'd jeopardise your home insurance, saleability and health if you skipped this step


I think you missed the point of my post; there are stoves where the air is fed directly into the stove rather than the room.


(http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/stove/img/stove-external-air-supply.jpg)


Personally i think the prices quoted are astronomic. At my last house I got a guy to drop some  flue liner down the chimney and put a cowl on top for around £400 and I installed the stove myself. It ain't rocket science.


As for Building Control they are complete waste of space; they came round to inspect our recent refurbishment and didn't even look at the wood burner (which is a room sealed air inlet as above).
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on July 20, 2013, 11:48:43 am
Womble we found the quotes from stove places ridiculous,  and it was a lot cheaper to get our stonemason to fit the flue etc and our plumber/heating engineer (heats reg) to do the other stuff. still probably several thousand but nothing like your quote. We did have PP tho as it was part of a renovation, tbh getting PP sounds a lot cheaper, and it's not like it'll be refused.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Womble on July 20, 2013, 12:31:50 pm
Some really helpful comments there folks - thankyou all very much!

Henchard - I had already decided on an external air intake  :thumbsup: . My neighbour has a stove installed with a separate air vent into the room which nobody will sit near due to the draughts. She also paid an absolute fortune to have it plumbed into her central heating system, but there are a couple of fundamental design flaws which mean it's never going to work properly.

In fact, having seen a couple of bodged 'professional' installations now, I'm far from confident in what I'm likely to get for the price of a small car, hence my feelings of if you want a job done properly, do it yourself!

Still pondering whether this is possible though, or whether I'm going to get strangled by all the red tape.......

Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: colliewobbles on July 20, 2013, 03:09:04 pm
???? we didn't have planning permission - and both burner supplier and plumber are reputable people who would have told us if we did need it.  Flue liner for a multi-fuel burner was £70/metre 4 years ago when I priced it up and that is particularly something you should not scrimp on.

At the very least I think you should get your installation signed off by a HETAS engineer if you do go down the self-install route.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: shygirl on July 20, 2013, 05:21:41 pm
did i misunderstand something here - you have to get permission for a new woodburner? or to connect it to your heating?  ???
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: henchard on July 20, 2013, 06:39:01 pm
did i misunderstand something here - you have to get permission for a new woodburner? or to connect it to your heating?  ???


I think there is a bit of confusion between planning permission and building regs. As far as i know you don't need PP unless you were installing a new chimney or flue on a listed building or in a conservation area.


A new wood burning installation is subject to Building Regs or as an alternative needs to be installed by a HETAS registered installer.


That's my understanding anyway!



Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on July 20, 2013, 06:53:23 pm
I think you are right Henchard. Building regs will give all the tech specification so that it will all be installed safely and also will meet the latest (ever increasing) standards.


We had to have both for ours as we were making alterations to the buildings fabric, but it was the building regs that addressed all the requirements in details.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Mammyshaz on July 20, 2013, 07:04:24 pm
That's me confusing PP for building regs  ::)  it's under building regs section J  not PP. Sorry for the confusion  :dunce:




Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: spandit on July 20, 2013, 10:19:42 pm
Above a certain kW output you need a dedicated room vent - you'd jeopardise your home insurance, saleability and health if you skipped this step


I think you missed the point of my post; there are stoves where the air is fed directly into the stove rather than the room.




Ah, I see!

Our stove is connected to an external flue and the vent is directly behind it, in the same place as your picture, more or less. Don't get any drafts
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Still playing with tractors on July 21, 2013, 04:28:42 am
Hi try david Haldane from Callander he is a registered chimney sweep and installer look up tartan timber on the net. He has done all our fires.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: colliewobbles on July 21, 2013, 01:19:42 pm
did i misunderstand something here - you have to get permission for a new woodburner? or to connect it to your heating?  ???


I think there is a bit of confusion between planning permission and building regs. As far as i know you don't need PP unless you were installing a new chimney or flue on a listed building or in a conservation area.


A new wood burning installation is subject to Building Regs or as an alternative needs to be installed by a HETAS registered installer.


That's my understanding anyway!

That would make sense for us then - as our engineer was HETAS registered which is why the subject was never raised.  I guess the building regs is just to get it signed off to ensure safety if the installer isn't registered?
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: doganjo on July 21, 2013, 01:21:13 pm
Anyone know what the  Council charge for retrospective Building regs inspection?
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: spandit on July 22, 2013, 12:38:21 am
Anyone know what the  Council charge for retrospective Building regs inspection?

Depends on the amount you spend on the works. It's higher than it would otherwise be... been there!
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: nicandem on July 22, 2013, 08:28:36 am
Something that most seem to have missed is that he is connecting it to a water system....
If you do it yourself, then be sure you know what you are doing... you must have some way of venting excess heat / temperature or you may cause a large problem when your system goes bang and makes its own vent :innocent:
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Womble on July 22, 2013, 09:45:07 am

Thanks guys,

Nicandem - don't worry, I design industrial pressure relief and control systems as part of my job, so I know not to box water into a corner and then make it angry!  That's one of the problems we have with our current system in that if the electricity fails we have to go and run a bath to stop it from rocking and rolling. Should be easily enough sorted with some heat-leak radiators though.

Doganjo - That is one I CAN answer, since we have just finished some building work started by the previous residents here and so had to get it signed off retrospectively. The fee we paid was 125% of the standard fee for the work - see the table half way down this page (http://www.south-ayrshire.gov.uk/buildingstandards/fees.aspx) for costs.

Summary of what I've understood from you all so far then:

Anything I've missed or misunderstood?  :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: henchard on July 22, 2013, 10:20:46 am
Lots of info here


http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/stove_help_and_advice.html (http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/stove_help_and_advice.html)
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Victorian Farmer on July 22, 2013, 10:35:17 am
iv just replaced my stove and chimney iv took all the double flu out and put steel so i can burn more rubish the other liner  burnt throu .I also make the stove this his haw far iv got its based on a jotul but more pawer window in the doore and wheel for the draft im having the legs turnd so it looks good the cast stuff cracks when high winds hits .
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Simon O on July 22, 2013, 11:04:24 am
Hey Womble - I have not put in my own stove but put in my own chimney liner for a stove which was already here without a liner, and subsequently we got stove guys to put in a new stove and they said what I'd done looked OK. The practicalities of putting in the liner were a little daunting, and were made worse by the fact that there was a lot of snow on the ground (and roof) at the time. I had been up to measure the diameter of the chimney pot then ordered the diameter of liner which just fitted this as I assumed this was the narrowest point - I think it was 20cm liner - I assumed that wider was better though the stove guys said this is not necessarily the case - Narrower I suppose gives more draw. I ordered all the stuff over the internet. For the actual installation I used a roof ladder to get up the extension roof and from there climbed the main house roof which has a lower angle to it, belayed myself to the chimney stack and then pulled up the liner with rope I had tied to it (having cleared the snow from the roof and allowed the remnant to melt in the sun). A long length of liner is quite heavy and difficult to manoevre and it is quite easy to kink if turned at too sharp an angle. It needs to go the right way round but this was well marked. It did fit into the chimney Ok but I had assumed it would get past the angulation half way down the chimney - there is a type of nose-cone you fit onto it - it took a lot of manipulation to do this - with Cheryl tugging on a string attached to the nosecone which dangled down into the fireplace. Eventually it went in - by that time I was pretty hypothermic and at the point of giving up - it was then relatively easy to fix it to the chimney pot at top and trim it to to fit at the bottom. I fastened a piece of fireproof board across the bottom of the chimney with a hole for the stovepipe to go through - this again was a bit tricky for someone of my limited DIY skills.
Getting the chimney liner down the chimney was definitely the hardest and probably most dangerous part - having climbing equipment and being used to rockclimbing definitely helped here - I can imagine in some circumstances scaffolding would be needed - our roof is relatively easy to get onto - a narrower liner would have helped, and also more assistants - probably 3 people would be best - one at the chimney, one to help guide the liner, one at the fireplace. Also communication can be difficult.
Just wrote this to let you know about some of the practical difficulty in getting a liner down. I don't know too much about all the regs etc though discussed these with our stove guys. We went with plain heater rather than anything to do water as well so not sure about all that stuff.
Simon
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: doganjo on July 22, 2013, 12:03:29 pm
David Womble  - another question.  The stove agents have surveyors who can sign it off for me, will I still have to do building regs as well? .Or can I just do the Building regs?  the surveyor is going to be £150 so I don't want to do both if I don't have to.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: happygolucky on July 22, 2013, 12:12:25 pm
Good look Anne, they seem to find a charge for everything, we paid out a small fortune for our annex then decided not to go ahead, strangely our annex is being done up as it is and is fine.. :fc:
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Womble on July 22, 2013, 12:24:57 pm
Annie - if it's for a stove, you either need a qualified HETAS engineer to sign off the install, OR building control, not both.

I'm only going down the building control route because I want to do a DIY install, since I refuse to pay the price of a small car to get the professionals in!
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: doganjo on July 22, 2013, 12:27:05 pm
It was installed by my local DIY man, not Heras so I'll ditch the surveyor chappie - he hasn't contacted me in 6 weeks anyway.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Womble on July 22, 2013, 04:29:09 pm

Annie - I'd check that one carefully if I were you. Building control will be £125, and might ask you a lot of awkward questions, whereas a HETAS inspector will know exactly what he's looking for right from the start. If you do go down the building control route, you'll need to ask for a "Completion Certificate Where No Warrant Was Obtained".

By the way, here's the conversation I've just had with Building Standards:

W: "I'd like to install a solid fuel stove, and I'd like to know what information you require"
BS: "We don't normally get involved in that sort of thing, since there's nothing really to see."
W: "Yes, but I'm doing it as a DIY job, so I'll need sign off"
BS: "OK, you're within your rights to do that {NB, Scotland only}. We just need a standard building warrant application pack, along with design details for the hearth and stove, the relevant clearances and a floor plan."
W: "Will you need to come out and inspect the job first?"
BS: "That's very unlikely. Depending on the information you send us, we'll probably just issue the warrant and then come and inspect the installation once it is complete".

So, I'm going to put together a pack and send it through with my cheque for £100........ wish me luck good people of TAS!  :fc:
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: doganjo on July 22, 2013, 06:29:30 pm
So if I get a HETAS guy for £150, do I not then need a BW? I am totally confused, and  I think I am going to cry.  :'( :'( :'(

Would the surveyor employed by the shop where I bought the stove be a HETAS engineer?
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: happygolucky on July 22, 2013, 06:48:05 pm
Good luck the pair of  you, we want eventually to put a wood burning stove in a shed :innocent: , I know loads of people who do have them in sheds so I want to copy them :eyelashes: , no actually I think it would be rather cute, the one thing I find strange I could have my chimanea going outside a shed but need planning permission for one inside!
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on July 22, 2013, 07:41:05 pm
Good luck the pair of  you, we want eventually to put a wood burning stove in a shed :innocent: , I know loads of people who do have them in sheds so I want to copy them :eyelashes: , no actually I think it would be rather cute, the one thing I find strange I could have my chimanea going outside a shed but need planning permission for one inside!
I guess the difference is the carbon monoxide will disperse outside but kill you inside... :farmer:
But done right no reason it won't work, even canal barges and gypsy wagons have them, so a shed should be perfectly doable.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Womble on July 22, 2013, 10:12:03 pm
So if I get a HETAS guy for £150, do I not then need a BW? I am totally confused, and  I think I am going to cry.  :'( :'( :'(

No, don't cry!  Assuming the surveyor from the stove shop is a HETAS engineer, he will come, inspect the installation, give you a sign off certificate and relieve you of £150. There is no need then to involve building control at all.

Quote
Would the surveyor employed by the shop where I bought the stove be a HETAS engineer?

You'd need to check, but I'd assume so, otherwise he has no business doing inspections!
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: doganjo on July 22, 2013, 11:21:01 pm
He's given me a metal tag to attach somewhere but I can't remember where - the chap who installed it has to fill in the details, will be seeing him in the next day or so.  Surveyor from shop said he could sign off what he could see and that I shoudl ask Roy to give me a certificate too. That's no problem as he followed their instructions to the letter.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Womble on July 25, 2013, 10:09:16 pm
OK, this is a weird curve-ball, but here goes!

I spoke to the place we'll probably be buying the stove from today, but said "no mad rush, since I still need to apply for the building warrant".  His reply knocked me back a bit: "You don't normally need one for Scotland you know, at least as far as I'm aware" This chap runs a stove shop, so I figured he ought to know! In fact, the only difference between him and the others I've spoken to is that he knew this was a supply only deal, and hence had nothing to gain by quoting me for the installation too.

So I've checked it out, and to my surprise, this is what I found deep in the furthest corners of the Scottish building regs (NB, this does not apply to England!!):

Quote from: Scottish Building Regs 0.5.2, Schedule 3
The following works do not require a warrant:

6. Any work associated with a combustion appliance installation or other part of a heating installation, not being work of types 7 or 8 below. ....Except........  Any work associated with a solid fuel appliance having an output rating more than 50 kW, an oil-firing appliance with an output rating more than 45 kW or a gas-fired appliance having a net input rating more than 70 kW. Any work associated with a chimney, flue-pipe or constructional hearth {NB, there's a special definition of what constitutes a constructional hearth}.

8. Any work associated with pipework, radiators, convector heaters and thermostatic controls for, or associated with, type 6 above.

9. Any work associated with installing a flue liner.

So there you have it, for what we're doing, I read that as no building warrant required!  :thumbsup:

Of course we'll still have to comply with all the building regs (the relevant sections are 3.17 to 3.22), but unless any of you can point out where I've mis-read, we don't have to wait for a warrant to be issued before we can start, neither do we have to be inspected once we've finished, which is definitely good news.

The other interesting thing is that Hetas don't actually have any legal standing in Scotland:

Quote from: Scottish Building Regs 3.17.4
There are other organisations representing the solid fuel industry but neither they nor HETAS have a mandatory status.

So, when one of the stove shops told me previously that I either needed a warrant or a HETAS inspection, the actual truth is that I actually don't need either, but as a matter of course they issue a HETAS installation certificate with every installation, even though it doesn't actually carry any legal weight in Scotland.

No wonder people are confused eh?  :-\

Womble.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on July 26, 2013, 07:11:38 am
Crikey, that's news to me, very interesting !! Thanks Womble!
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: doganjo on July 26, 2013, 09:03:52 am
Very interesting, David, the only fly in the ointment I can see is that I was told your house insurance becomes invalid if you don't have certification of some sort.  If you had a fire - not necessarily because of the stove, could be an electrical fault - or god forbid a lightning strike - then they wouldn't pay out.

Any thoughts on that folks?
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: happygolucky on July 26, 2013, 09:08:48 am
Jeeeeeeeeeee.....lost indeed, I read this post with interest but we have no intention of putting a stove in this house but may do in our next house......seems so confusing to me and insurance will find loopholes if they can it appears. When we had the home report done we got a specialist in and he came up with one reason for a damp wall, so we got several others in, they each had a different reason and solution....we went with a long established firm in the end and it appears to  have sorted the problem, that's what we will do if we buy a log burner, get a long established firm that's local in, they tend to know the ins and outs!!
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: philcaegrug on July 26, 2013, 01:25:19 pm
Just as an add-on to this topic I'm a coal merchant and the government are thinking of introducing an emissions test for new -builds in the next 3 years. At the moment you will not be able to fit a coal -fired system that will pass an emissions test. I don't know about log burners. This will so far only apply to a new house and not to a repair or upgrade in an older dwelling.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: doganjo on July 26, 2013, 02:56:40 pm
Jeeeeeeeeeee.....lost indeed, I read this post with interest but we have no intention of putting a stove in this house but may do in our next house......seems so confusing to me and insurance will find loopholes if they can it appears. When we had the home report done we got a specialist in and he came up with one reason for a damp wall, so we got several others in, they each had a different reason and solution....we went with a long established firm in the end and it appears to  have sorted the problem, that's what we will do if we buy a log burner, get a long established firm that's local in, they tend to know the ins and outs!!
I think that's the problem though, Sandy - as David says the suppliers he contacted didn't know, except the last one.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Womble on July 26, 2013, 03:23:44 pm
Very interesting, David, the only fly in the ointment I can see is that I was told your house insurance becomes invalid if you don't have certification of some sort.

I see what you mean, but we already have two solid fuel systems (an Esse range in the kitchen, and another standard wood burner in the living room) that were installed by the previous residents and I'm sure have no certification. This must be the case with older appliances throughout the country.
 
Now if I were to install something today which is not compliant with building regs then yes of course I'm not going to be covered in the event of a fire. However, if everything's been done according to the regulations, I don't see the problem.
 
One obvious issue is that if your insurer is based in England, you may have a job convincing them that you didn't need the same certificate as somebody living South of the border, but then it is Scottish law that applies in Scotland isn't it?  :-J
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Womble on July 26, 2013, 03:28:59 pm
OK, my curiosity got the better of me, so I called the HETAS helpline, and was told the following:
  They also said that though I didn't need a certificate, I did need a building warrant  ::) . I then said that I had checked, and I was pretty sure I didn't need a warrant for what I'm planning to do. They then said "Oh, that's ok then"  :D
 
Confusion really does reign supreme, doesn't it!!
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: chrismahon on July 29, 2013, 07:21:09 am
Don't forget you need to clean the flue as well at least every 12 months or your house insurance is invalid. Over here everyone cleans their own and flue rods and brushes are incredibly cheap. But you need a dated photograph. Alternatively you burn an €8 cleaning log but you need to keep the receipt. Because our wood got damp I did ours 3 times last year.


An external air vent isn't an option on old stone built houses here. They are too fragile to start banging a hole through 2' thick, often dry-bult, limestone wall. The external and internal faces aren't too bad, but the centre is just rubble.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: happygolucky on July 29, 2013, 02:46:15 pm
Not sure what its called but there is some part on log burners that also needs replacing frequently, not sure if its the Baffle or am I talking rubbish, anyway, it costs around £40, we also have to have our chimney swept but that's not too much of a problem and not costly either....no one seems to need the soot any more though!!
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: doganjo on July 29, 2013, 03:46:10 pm
Not the fire I have - no replacement parts required.  Also have a heat plate at the back and concrete plinth.  I have certificates of compliance coming from both the installer and the supplier, and also a metal tag plate to be attached to the fire is going to be completed this week.  All sorted.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: happygolucky on July 29, 2013, 03:56:03 pm
I am sure that they all do Anne, we went to a log burner shop and made enquiries, there is a part that goes in time, usually a year, also a house we viewed had one that needed replacing and a friend had one too......they start to not throw the heat out after a while!
Quote
BafflesBaffles in wood heaters reflect heat towards the fire, increase the length of the flame path and create a chamber for secondary combustion, all of which are essential for clean burning and high efficiency. They may be stainless steel, cast iron, firebrick, ceramic fiber board or a combination of these materials. Since they are exposed to flame on both sides, baffles get very hot and will deteriorate over time. Removal and replacement is usually detailed in the owner's manual. For mainstream stoves, replacement parts can be ordered from a stove retailer or directly from the manufacturer. Cheaper stoves may have baffles that are not replaceable, meaning that the stove is ruined when the baffle fails.
Some horizontal baffles include a ceramic fiber blanket, which usually lies on top of the baffle. During maintenance and cleaning, this blanket must be pressed down flat so that it doesn't block the area above the baffle where the exhaust flows. Ceramic fibers should be treated like asbestos; airborne particles should not be inhaled. Wearing a respirator is recommended when doing this kind of maintenance.

Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: doganjo on July 29, 2013, 04:13:14 pm
No it doesn't - I checked.  I was told it might need one in about 5 years.  It's Swedish - they are experts at log burners.  If you look after the stove as explained when bought, they don't need baffles replaced very often.

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THE BAFFLE PLATE IS BURNED INTO PIECES.
WHY HAS THAT HAPPENED, AND CAN I REPLACE IT?

The baffle is a consumable item that should be changed as needed.

Morsø cast iron stoves have very long life if wearing parts are replaced when they are worn. When letting too much primary air through the grate shaker, the temperature in the combustion chamber becomes very high, and this can shorten the life of the baffle.

Another reason may be that there are ashes and soot on top of the baffle. Soot and ash on top of the baffle should be removed 1-2 times a year, this can be done with a brush or Morsø ash tool.

 
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: happygolucky on July 29, 2013, 06:06:35 pm
 ::) OK.............
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: shygirl on July 30, 2013, 12:28:57 am
.
I am sure that they all do Anne, we went to a log burner shop and made enquiries, there is a part that goes in time, usually a year, also a house we viewed had one that needed replacing and a friend had one too......they start to not throw the heat out after a while!
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mine is solid metal. how do you know if it needs replacing?

Don't forget you need to clean the flue as well

a bird fell down our chimney this spring and brought down stacks of soot, so im guessing our is now clean  :innocent:
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: happygolucky on July 30, 2013, 08:53:07 am
We had one stuck in ours last week, Steve lit some newspaper and it dropped down coughing so he put it outside, something ate it in the night though!! Similar thing happened with our other fireplace except it did not die and it went everywhere around the house  until we opened a window.. We did have a cowl on one chimney pot but then started to get smoke in the room, when we had the experts in, some one had put the wrong cowl on so now its off completely and we never get smoke, both our fires work very well....we have collected tons of wood too so unless we move before the winter sets in, loads of fires to keep us warm
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Womble on July 30, 2013, 12:16:18 pm
a bird fell down our chimney this spring and brought down stacks of soot, so im guessing our is now clean  :innocent:

You're probably right Shygirl. Apparently it used to be common practice in Victorian times to clean chimneys by dropping chickens down them!
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: happygolucky on July 30, 2013, 12:18:06 pm
 :chook:   :o  I  suppose then they modernised the proceedings and put little boys up them!!
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: doganjo on July 30, 2013, 03:30:03 pm

mine is solid metal. how do you know if it needs replacing?

There's a great deal of information on the internet, Shygirl.  Just Google the make and model of your stove.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: chrismahon on July 30, 2013, 09:25:14 pm
In Victorian times Womble and Happygolucky, chickens were worth a lot more than little boys. Chickens were only available to the gentry. So cleaning a chimney by throwing a chicken down it may well have resulted in a hanging. They may have thrown another type of bird down though.


Your wood must be dry, that is less than 20% water content. Otherwise you have to turn the air up to burn it which results in in a dramatic increase in wood consumption and an increase in temperature to steam off the water. The small print in the fire handbook will say wood burned must be of less than 20% water content or the guarantee is invalid -big issue over here. And having measured the water content of wood apparently dry I would say no-one can possibly comply unless theirs is dried in a kiln and shrink wrapped.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: doganjo on July 30, 2013, 10:14:17 pm
In Victorian times Womble and Happygolucky, chickens were worth a lot more than little boys. Chickens were only available to the gentry. So cleaning a chimney by throwing a chicken down it may well have resulted in a hanging. They may have thrown another type of bird down though.


Your wood must be dry, that is less than 20% water content. Otherwise you have to turn the air up to burn it which results in in a dramatic increase in wood consumption and an increase in temperature to steam off the water. The small print in the fire handbook will say wood burned must be of less than 20% water content or the guarantee is invalid -big issue over here. And having measured the water content of wood apparently dry I would say no-one can possibly comply unless theirs is dried in a kiln and shrink wrapped.
You can buy a meter very cheaply.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Womble on July 31, 2013, 09:00:00 am
There is a free way though, if you like maths. If you split the wood when it was green, you can look up an approximate moisture content for it. Then put several logs in a string onion bag or similar, weigh them, and tag the bag with the date and weight.  If you come back to the same bag after so many months, the weight will have decreased, and you can make a decent stab at calculating the new moisture content. When the weight stops decreasing, you know that the logs are about as seasoned as they're going to get. You can also tell sometimes by how the end grain has cracked, and when the logs start to look grey-ish rather than brown-ish.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: happygolucky on July 31, 2013, 09:00:38 am
Did anyone watch the Kevin McCloud programme about building a house for free...or from recycled stuff? It was a bit of fun really as he used stuff that would cost a lot and had a log burner made from an old safe!!! (possibly cost him more to convert it than to buy a pre loved of cheap new one)
I loved the little stoves you can get and want to aim for one you can put a kettle on the top!!
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Womble on July 31, 2013, 11:49:37 am
Hi Sandy,  if you're into recycling, have a squint at this (http://www.shaftesburyforge.co.uk/burners.php) and see what you reckon!  ;D
 
(http://www.shaftesburyforge.co.uk/images/upright400.jpg)
 
Can you tell what it is yet?  ;)
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: happygolucky on July 31, 2013, 11:55:44 am
Lovely, not sure if it was the same person who was on another TV programme about ways to make money, they ended up living in a sort of shed and let out their home for holiday rentle then the man  made stoves out of gas bottles that were lovely, they sorted their money problems out, I would love to make something as good....wonderful thanks! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: doganjo on July 31, 2013, 02:18:54 pm
I'll stick with the meter - can't humph string bags of logs about any more, and I certainnly couldn't make anything out of an old gas bottle for fear it would explode while I was working on it  ;D

I watched Kirsty Allsop last night =- they got an old log stove from a fireplace shop for nothing.  Looked prerty good too.

Sandy, you can boil a kettle on any flat topped wood/multi fuel stove.  I did on mine last winter when we had a power cut - actually cooked a whole meal on it.  Did the same with the one in the house I built too.  One of the reasons for putting them in to be honest - in case of power cuts you can survive as long as you have something to burn.  I'd never install one of the sloping topped ones, or those with very little top surface.

Something to bear in mind with yours David.
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: Womble on July 31, 2013, 02:27:17 pm
Yes, that's a very good point Annie.

The one we're going to install won't run properly without electricity to pump the water around unfortunately (it will dump the heat safely, but not in the places we want it!). However, we'll still have the existing wood burner in the other fireplace which has a flat top for cooking on or boiling the kettle. When we lost power during the winter a couple of years ago, we just moved into that room and cooked and snuggled by the stove. I was gutted when they finally restored the power!  ;D
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: doganjo on July 31, 2013, 02:39:36 pm
we just moved into that room and cooked and snuggled by the stove. I was gutted when they finally restored the power!  ;D
A few candles too and it can be very romantic - back to the 'good old days' :excited: :excited:
Title: Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
Post by: happygolucky on July 31, 2013, 02:58:22 pm
A few houses we have looked at have nice log burners but for now we keep with the open fires that we can burn most stuff on...in a shed we would go for a stove type too.......
.I love that Kristy Alsop programme but often the cost of doing them up is more than a new one, we looked around at shops and asked a few questions...Ideally I would love a little cottage with a log burner and maybe one that could heat water and of course solar panels and then we would not need CH...I had a terraced house before that did not have CH but heaters in the bedrooms and I loved that.....I want very few things to maintain and take my money :roflanim: