[robert waddell]

when our first male dog was killed   we asked a breeder and competitor in agility how much for the lining of her dog £400 and the pick of the litter    aye on yer bike     it all just comes down to money      and a few want it all to themselves   am i right

[in the hills]

Money plays a part in most things, Robert ..... whether we like it or not.


Did you say that you bred pups occasionally? Do you charge for them? If so, then money is part of it even for you.


I agree that people in show/working/trial world may charge what seems like a lot of money to some .... including me    but presumably there are people willing to pay that. I think stud fee used to be in most cases, either the price of a pup or indeed pick of the litter/second pick. I don't believe that the majority were involved just for the money .... they loved showing/working etc just as some may love show jumping, agility, pigs and so on. High prices for stud dogs and so on in general reflected the dogs achievements in the ring/field and so on. I suppose this is true in every other field eg horsey world, pigs ... though I know nothing about these. Don't think that we could say that these people "want it all themselves" or those in the doggy world.

[Moleskins]

Robert and ITH you both raise good points but what's the answer?
My thinking was that if Show Champions had to be healthy then bit by bit you'd filter that health into the general dog population. Same for FTC etc.
I can only agree that there is a lot of money involved in the dog world and the 'powers that be' don't want anything to come along to spoil their party.
There are many on the forum who want all dogs to be adopted from rescue but my view would be more along the lines of leave 'em there, block the system up so that breeding poor quality dogs is halted.
Show breeders could be accused of being as bad as anyone for breeding pups to try to get a show winner and then having to offload the excess of the litter into the general dog population.
As I said before, not easy is it.

[robert waddell]

why are they rescue in the first place     aw look at the nice wee pup/pig/lamb /goat/calve/chicken     they all grow bigger  and if not looked after right can turn into the most vicious thing alive  and children can be the worst offenders      we had a collie once hated children but a fantastic dog as a pet companion      a lorry driver saved it from being drowned at a quarry   the first collie i had was a vicious bastard of a dog and should never have been bred in the first place     
so if i can breed good friendly dogs that can go on to be rescue dogs or agility or companion i don't need anybody sticking there Neb into what i do and dictating  one way or another that i should or should not be doing it or answerable to some know all that the nearest they would come to being an expert is if they slept with one
 
every thing in life costs money  and if you can get a return on the feed costs to breed anything  that is acceptable 

[in the hills]

Robert - I think that quite a few people who breed dogs and as you say many other species would share that opinion. Rightly or wrongly.


Moleskins - I hope you don't think I'm being awkward in raising the points ....  as I don't have any answers. Just putting them there for discussion.


 I know others will disagree, but yes, people who show, often do produce many litters in pursuit of that perfect specimen. They often do have all the health checks advised (in my experience) but also line breed and are doing so primarily for "looks". If some didn't do this though, would we eventually lose some breeds or end up with less quality in our breeds. They are concerned with breeding very much to "type" ..... if we only had people breeding for pet qualities what effect would it have on the breeds. 

[Moleskins]

Moleskins - I hope you don't think I'm being awkward in raising the points ....  as I don't have any answers. Just putting them there for discussion.


 I know others will disagree, but yes, people who show, often do produce many litters in pursuit of that perfect specimen. They often do have all the health checks advised (in my experience) but also line breed and are doing so primarily for "looks". If some didn't do this though, would we eventually lose some breeds or end up with less quality in our breeds. They are concerned with breeding very much to "type" ..... if we only had people breeding for pet qualities what effect would it have on the breeds.

Nope, don't think you're being awkward at all, your points have added to the discussion.
Line breeding and getting to 'type' is all well and good but you loose other traits, I think a balance of breeding to type and breeding for other traits is needed. However a way of not having heart conditions, liver conditions, cancer  etc by inheritance is needed. Looking  at some of the rescue sites there's an awful lot of poor stock being bred from.
How would we deal with that?

 
so if i can breed good friendly dogs that can go on to be rescue dogs or agility or companion i don't need anybody sticking there Neb into what i do and dictating  one way or another that i should or should not be doing it or answerable to some know all that the nearest they would come to being an expert is if they slept with one
 

Robert, have you seen the stick I've had for breeding from a good friendly dog that has the intelligence to 'go on'.
Her mother is being trained to find dead bodies. Crowds were nearly out with flaming torches and pitchforks after me. You've got to 

[robert waddell]

aye and your dogs will be like mine never the vet after there jags have been given

[Old Shep]

There are many on the forum who want all dogs to be adopted from rescue but my view would be more along the lines of leave 'em there, block the system up so that breeding poor quality dogs is halted.

Sorry Moles, I haven't got my head around this statement.  The system IS blocked up, dogs are put to sleep every day in dog pounds over breeding continues....  If no-one adopts from rescues the rescues will have to put down all dogs they currently have and all strays and hand-ins will be pts also.  But how will that stop the breeders?  People decide they don't want what was a cuddly fluffy puppy two years ago so they throw it out.  A few months later they get another cuddly fluffy puppy.    .  Breeders laugh all the way to the bank.


I have just transported a lovely dog today from a pound where his time was up to a rescue where hopefully he will find a new home.  Gorgeous big friendly dog looked like a black beardie cross, not even two years old.  Had symmetrical wounds on each side of his body where he had been wearing an ill fitting harness.  He was probably chucked out because he pulled too much ( having never been trained probably). He deserves a loving family who will train him and enjoy him, he doesn't deserve being put to sleep.

[robert waddell]

well shep you have the answer   it is the buyer of these dogs that has it all wrong   no buyer you will not have breeders    just look at the pig world 

[Moleskins]

Well if that's the case and the public are going out every two years to buy another fluffy puppy and dumping the old one on the system then Robert is probably right in that it's the public who is at fault.


I was coming at this from the point of all the ex breeding dogs who are in rescue, which I think is appalling.
If the system were to grind to a halt the public might become aware and then the problem sorts itself out.


Similar happened in bee keeping. Bee keepers were all aware of the impending problems with bees years and years ago, it took many attempts to get the media to switch onto it and now the public are very much aware of the problem.


I'm not comfortable with the situation with dogs but we are where we are.
I continue to feel that the more people like myself and perhaps Robert that breed dogs the better, every one we sell is healthy ( in as far as is possible ) homed correctly ( ditto ) and given the backup ( ditto ). That's about as much as you can do.

[Old Shep]

Moles - I see what you meant now applying it to ex breeding dogs.  I would suspect most ex breeding dogs don't end up in rescue though - the ones at many tears are the lucky few.  I wont expand on what I think really happens...  

[Moleskins]

Well my ex breeding dog won't end up in rescue nor will she be disposed of in any other way.
I'm sure that statement says a lot if anyone cares to think about it.


This thread has come up with some good discussion but it seems not an answer that would suit everyone.
Sure to have made us think a bit more about it though 

[Bumblebear]

Judges do have the opinion of ringside vets and if a dog is clearly "not fit for function" it's prize can be revoked.  IMO show people and kc reg breeders aren't the issue; it's joe blogs breeding whatever 'poo' or 'oodle' the fashionable cross is; I'm not saying all breeders are responsible but the majority do love their breed and have long standing reputations.  Genetics is a funny beast though and at the end of the day we can only talk in probabilities, I have seen two excellent hip scoring parents have a litter of v poor scoring pups.

[doganjo]

Robert and ITH you both raise good points but what's the answer?
My thinking was that if Show Champions had to be healthy then bit by bit you'd filter that health into the general dog population. Same for FTC etc.
I can only agree that there is a lot of money involved in the dog world and the 'powers that be' don't want anything to come along to spoil their party.
(Notably the KC)
There are many on the forum who want all dogs to be adopted from rescue but my view would be more along the lines of leave 'em there, block the system up so that breeding poor quality dogs is halted.
Show breeders could be accused of being as bad as anyone for breeding pups to try to get a show winner and then having to offload the excess of the litter into the general dog population.
color=red]Yup, many of the big breeders do that, but they are also usually the ones doing all the health checks I keep- banging on about[/color]
As I said before, not easy is it.

I have to agree with a lot of this. (Yes, REALLY, MS  ) Not sure about the 'leave them in rescue' bit though - Rescue Societies/Centres/Breed sections don't have the facilities to keep dogs for any length of time, so these would have to be killed if they weren't rehomed.  But these are the very dogs that are being bred for cash, then sold to the wrong people, then being discarded, not ex-breeding dogs.  These are usually rehomed to people the breeders al;ready know, in my experience.  That doesn't happen in my breed as we are all soft lumps and keep our dogs whether tehy breed or not, because they are such great workers.
Other than that I think you have made some very valid points.

[Moleskins]

Thank you for your reply, my thought on 'leave them in the system to block it up' was prompted by what I saw on the Many Tears website where every other dog was ex breeding.


If hundreds of these were not found homes, or even thousands, when they were inevitably destroyed the public would become aware of the problem. Then it might be solved.