[Old Shep]

Moles your    is great.  Some tests ae not possible on the spot eg PRA but they could have a certificate to prove they were PRA clear?


ITH - unplanned farm litters are definitely part of the problem - a big part of the border collies problem - the puppies are sold to anyone who will buy them, and they don't all make good pets in a home that doesn't understand them.  It is preventable though, keep the dogs tied up or in separate kennels!  Dogs shouldn't be allowed to run free all day to get into all sorts of trouble, get run over, kill hens etc etc..

[Beewyched]

Moles your    is great.  Some tests ae not possible on the spot eg PRA but they could have a certificate to prove they were PRA clear?


ITH - unplanned farm litters are definitely part of the problem - a big part of the border collies problem - the puppies are sold to anyone who will buy them, and they don't all make good pets in a home that doesn't understand them.  It is preventable though, keep the dogs tied up or in separate kennels!  Dogs shouldn't be allowed to run free all day to get into all sorts of trouble, get run over, kill hens etc etc..

Looks like we're starting to get somewhere 

[Moleskins]

So shall I tell the Kennel Club? And what will be the reaction from the show ring if I do?

[robert waddell]

so all the problems in the dog breeding world     is down to farm collies now
Dicky hearts   poor legs bad hip scores   brains to big for the skulls   all the fault of the farmer  you want to listen to yourselves     there are far more collie breeders that are no where near a farm       if it is a dog and can make money      these great dog breeders will be into it
before you start preaching that it is the farmers have a look in the towns and city's  and the amount of dogs that are running about and causing  all sorts of problems and accidents as well

[Moleskins]

Hang on Robert we've only just solved the problems of all the pedigree dogs, we're working on mongrels next and then if you'd like we can do the Collies

[robert waddell]

as i saw it there were more problems than when you all started
a few years ago a farmer bought one of our pups and commented that at one time  collies could not be given away      i think that was about the time any unwanted pups and kittens were drowned at birth   cant remember there being a surplus of unwanted cats  and dogs when i was growing up

[Moleskins]

I was being a bit    But I do think we've a good idea on the table to only confirm awards on dogs once the health is proven, the same could apply to Collies with their eye problem. They win one man and his dog but the show is only televised once the dogs health is checked.
Actually that's not a bad idea    Get the commentator to mention it in his blurb about the dog.

[YorkshireLass]

Much better idea than licences and paperwork 


Now, how to catch the ones who don't care about showing.... 

[in the hills]

Robert when I posted about collies I was in no way implying that farmers were in any way responsible for "all the problems in the dog breeding world". That would just be silly, wouldn't it. In fact, I think my post should have gone in the other thread about legislation, responsible dog ownership etc. Blame the red wine    My neighbour trains, trials and breeds collies. Very responsibly I believe. He will not sell - full stop - to pet homes and has a waiting list for his pups. However (and I understand fully that they are working dogs - my father has working gundogs) there is a problem up here at least with collies being allowed on a regular basis to have unplanned litters and the resulting pups going to unsuitable homes (yes, I know an odd accident will happen but this is frequently - there is a difference). You talk about not being able to give collies away - this is still the case with a lot of these unplanned litters. I understand they are working dogs, I understand they are often dirty, know they are not pets but that doesn't in my opinion mean that farmers have any less responsibility than show owners, pet owners in towns or anyone else.


Moleskins - who is paying for the tests to be carried out at the shows, working tests, trials etc.
What if I want to show/work my dog but have no intention of breeding? Do I still have to pay for the tests in order that I keep my prize card?
   

[Old Shep]

Robert - of course farmers aren't responsible for all the problems in the dog world - no-one even said that!  My personal pedigree has farming in every generation back to the 1500's so I don't do "farmer bashing" for fun!  But SOME irresponsible farmers seem to have "accidental" litters for sale every year.   This is completely preventable with kenneling and if you must chaining up! I'm sure your bitches don't have litters every season because you can't be bothered to keep them away from male dogs?  I'm sure that you'll only breed when you have a good reason to ? 


The dog community has to stop blaming other areas of the dog world and start admitting that there is fault in every area  - show, gundogs, farm dogs, pet dogs, status dogs etc..  ALL are being overbred and there are good and bad breeders in each area.  Maybe if each "good" breeder spoke out in the particular special field we may get somewhere.

[robert waddell]

when we were looking for a dog (collie)   nobody reared them in the house environment   so how the f***  were the pups going to be sociable and used to a home environment         
 
ours are reared in the home and think this is one off the attractions   they are paper trained  when they go  so it is only a little time to they are toilet trained   if they are let out     the majority do go on for agility /obedience   and one is a fully trained mountain rescue dog
we always get people showing an interest in wanting pups    take there number cal them back when pups are there to be seen    sorry i got fixed up is the usual reply never once have we sold a pup that we have a telephone number for

[in the hills]

   Shep - well said. Blaming everyone else does no good at all or for that matter getting defensive because we ourselves are in the world of showing, working, trialing, or whatever.


Some good may come out of more general education in schools. I know we are in the doggy part but this happens with lots of species eg. cats. Only discussed with my 10 year old yesterday that no it wasn't exciting that her friends young female cat would come back pregnant soon and that just maybe it would have been better for the kitten to be neutered  Good education in primary schools maybe a starting point in developing responsible ownership when it comes to breeding from animals.


Bit off thread I think as this is about breeding approaches but it all becomes linked as we discuss, it seems.

[Moleskins]

Moleskins - who is paying for the tests to be carried out at the shows, working tests, trials etc.
What if I want to show/work my dog but have no intention of breeding? Do I still have to pay for the tests in order that I keep my prize card?
   

Good point, I would say that you probably have a dog whose parents were tested and in some cases this would show that your dog was not susceptible to certain ailments. In which case that would suffice. Or your dog may be neutered or spayed in which case that sorts it.
For the other dogs then yes we may have to accept that health checks were required, or, a certificate from the KC to show the dog was endorsed as not for breeding and no pups could be registered from it.

[in the hills]

Moleskins - so ... if you enter show/test/trial and may wish to breed from your dog then you have to be prepared to pay for health checks in order to get your card awarded.


Been out of that circle for a while.


How much are these tests now?
Is it still the case that people wishing to breed from their dog/bitch get the tests carried out A.S.A.P. in order to get the best scores eg hips before natural wear and tear means you get a lower score?


What percentage of people breeding dogs actually show/trial? Guessing it still leaves bigger proportion of people breeding dogs that won't have tests done.    Majority of people that I knew in the show/trialing world did actually have the health tests done that were available at the time. Partly I think for the good of the breed (in general they do care passionately about "their" breed) and partly maybe because buyers of pups did expect those tests to have been carried out .... they could be paying quite a bit for their chosen pup. It was also "expected" so if you approached someone asking to use their stud dog, they would ask if your bitch had been tested for whatever. Only going on my experience with a certain breed of gundog in the show ring and 2 gundog breeds in the working world. Can't speak of others.


So, more controls for people in the show/ working world but are most of these people doing this anyway? Are you reaching the people you need to reach?

[robert waddell]

think you are going round in circles on this one     the endorsements thing  not worth the paper it is written on    you will only get the same crap as in the pig world    as i heard a conversation at a pig sale is your pigs registered no i don't believe in them being registered mine are every bit as good as the registered ones but a lot cheaper and do the same job
 
we once had a blue burman cat   with all the paperwork and an endorsement   male intact as well  i just happened to be working near the breeder   sooooo i went to see her to get the endorsement lifted and possibly become a breeder      what i saw was in my view  only breeding for the money the garden was full of sheds with cages of cats all breeds    cages in the house again full of cats
rosettes all over the walls    not my idea of how house cats and family pets should be breed   i made my excesses and left