[jaykay]

That's the thing YL, to get the recessives you want and not those you don't. Or the dominants you want but pure not hiding surprise recessives.

I think maybe that article goes a bit far Deeps, I'm not sure we'll all look Brazilian one day (though they're a handsome people so it could be worse  ) but it's interesting. As they say, the recessives remain in the gene pool and are periodically expressed in an individual.

Which is how many diseases caused by recessive genes survive, cos when they're expressed in a double recessive individual they die or don't breed and remove the genes from the population. Therefore the gene should disappear, but it doesn't, cos it remains in the 'carriers', people with a good and a bad gene. They're fine, the good gene is what shows, but get two of them having kids together and potentially a child ends up with the two bad genes.

[SteveHants]

On the flipside, you might *want* those recessive genes - e.g. certain colours. The knack is getting the good bits (pretty colours) without the bad bits (knock knees, for a random example!)

Funnily - this is my main problem with 'breed societies' in farm animals and dogs.


I think that coulors, shape of face, fancy looking tails etc are often sought, and the people seeking them become so zoned in on that they ignore much more important things like soundness, longevity, suceptability to disease, ability to give birth etc.

[Old Shep]

Exactly SH - border collies used to be black & white mainly.  Merles, reds, blues etc were rare.  Then people started breeding for colour rather than temperament, health etc !  I meet a lot of red collies that are very iffy temperament (esp males) and merles can be absolutely manic - not to mention deaf if you breed 2 merles together.  Unfortunately come breeders will accept some deaf puppies in a merle/merle litter - some rescue will take them on! -  because you get more money for merles than normal coloured pups. 


Fashion has no place in breeding any animals!

[Moleskins]

I'm certainly more informed on certain things because of these threads.
Not too sure about line breeding it seems it can cause as many problems as it may solve.
As SteveHants has said it's possible to get so fixated on some features you forget / sacrifice more important things.
And from Shep this seems to be a glaring example with the Collie situation with Merles.


On the rescue side of things, I spoke to my sister in law yesterday and they have 3 Cockers all rescued all with problems, heart, leg deformity, eyesight. She's all for saving them all from the likes of Many Tears but I just can't go along with that, once the rescues are overflowing with badly bred dogs the general public might wake up. Ultimately that's what's got to happen to stop the present situation dead in its tracks. Sorry.

[Mel Rice]

(slight hijack...sorry)
 
I went last week to see a wonderful family of white Bengal Tigers bred at Liberec Zoo . All three cubs are doing well and have bonded with mum....last lot of cubs had to be hand reared and only one mase it.
The white in tigers is recessive.

[Moleskins]

Is the white in tigers a benefit or is it an oddity which man likes to retain purely for the novelty value.
I suspect that a white tiger wouldn't last long in the wild, it would soon starve to death.


Question is, how much of that do we do in the dog world, striving for or retaining specific characteristics just because it suits us. And more importantly is it a good thing ?

[sabrina]

when breeding any animal should we not just look at sire and dam but grandparents, etc as far back as one can. maybe then there would be fewer problems.Was out with friends last night who a year ago bought two flat coated retrievers, the bitch has heart problems. £700 each and a life time of vet bills

[Moleskins]

Hmmmmm
how would this work, I've looked at the pedigree of my bitches sire, lots on there, names so I can see there's not a conflict with them being too closely related, info on FTC etc but nothing about Grandad having a heart condition.
Can we imagine a breeder with an expensive stud dog who has a heart condition declaring it and making the dog worthless, another one for the rehomers. Not easy is it.

[Old Shep]

Unless a breeder wants to volunteer info about ancestors there is no way of finding out except by hearsay. 




Now if we had a database with each dogs information on, hereditary conditions, bad temperament, no. of litters etc.........

[Beewyched]

   Exactly Moles - that is what I was trying to get to with the "legs & regs" post - everything would be traceable - ancestors & descendants - then the KC can put a stop on any dog/bitch being bred from, back by legislation.  At the moment, this is totally voluntary & as most of us are aware, not many breeders will openly admit there is something "wrong" with their Champion Dog - let alone stop breeding from it 
And
At the moment, only registered dogs's pedigrees can be traced at the moment.  If anyone wishing to breed from their purebred/mongrel had basic health tests done BEFORE breeding from them, then surely this would a) put off the "get rich quick" breeders b) go a long way to unwanted / unhealthy puppies?
With regards to show dogs / purebreeds - yes there are Breed Confirmations for every breed of dog - set by the Kennel Club.  Anyone showing/breeding purebreds should be aiming for this in their animal, it is up to the KC to make sure the Breed Standards are enhancing the health of the breed, not "overdoing" characteristics that will cause detriment then once these are set only dogs that reach this Standard AND have breed-related health tests should be bred from and/or shown.
IMHO if any dog is found to have health issues or produces progeny with health issues it should be withdrawn from both Breed Class showing & breeding from.  Afterall, what is the point of making a dog a Show Champion if it is, say infertile or producing progeny with heart problems?  I certainly know of a few - that's certainly not good breed confirmation 

[in the hills]

Sabrina - You mentioned Flat Coats. Was the heart problem an inherited one? Never heard of this in Flatties though there is speculation that they may suffer from cancer in an inherited form. Think it was being researched. Know several people that lost them as very young dogs from this. Didn't know whether to have one because of this but did in the end. Got a soft spot for them  .

[Moleskins]

    The only way I can see anything useful working is something along the lines of drugs testing athletes.


A dog wins at a show or working test, before the award is finally conferred on it the vet has to do a health check, if found to be unfit the award is handed to the second placed dog provided that passes the health check and so on.


The health check could be tailored to specific breeds so Labs would be different to Cavaliers or Alsations etc.


This would result in only tested healthy specimens having the coveted 'FTC' or 'Show Champion'    titles.


Little or no added paperwork, licences etc. How's that sound? 

[in the hills]

In the three years I have lived here nearly every farm around me has had at least one unplanned litter of collie puppies. News of the litters, like all other news      , gets around pretty quickly, as homes are sought for the pups. Don't think they would be too concerned with home checks or suitability of homes. Most of the last litter I was told about were killed by the other farm dogs. The farmers wife said that they didn't realize that she was in whelp so the other dogs got to them first.


One would think/hope that puppy farms could be identified and dealt with but what about the above? 


Lots of problems in the doggy world   What the answers are I don't know.

[SallyintNorth]

A dog wins at a show or working test, before the award is finally conferred on it the vet has to do a health check, if found to be unfit the award is handed to the second placed dog provided that passes the health check and so on.

The health check could be tailored to specific breeds so Labs would be different to Cavaliers or Alsations etc.

This would result in only tested healthy specimens having the coveted 'FTC' or 'Show Champion'    titles.

How's that sound? 

Sounds eminently sensible, to me! 

[Moleskins]

InTheHills, I think that's just one of those things that would / could happen on farms. With probably not a lot we could do about it. The dogs can be low on the list of animals to deal with and unsupervised for some of the time.
Not ideal to most of us, but they're working farm dogs not pets, I've seen some caked in sh!t but seemingly quite happy and eager to get to work.

The worst seems to be happening in the 'planned breeding' dog world, where it's become a business.