[Mrs Snoodles]

I got an awful lot of advice from our vet today. He is one of the top pig vets in the country so I thought I would share his views.

Basically, he had a good look at my pigs today. My Hampshires and not in pig and too big to be decent breeding sows.  My large blacks are just about OK. Well, a couple are really fine, the others are as big as they need to be.

In his opinion, rare breed breeding pigs should only have their protein upped between 6 and 10 weeks, when they are weaning off Mums rich milk.  After this, he has advised me to get my pigs on the lowest protein sow diet, 14 percent if possible, and to watch their weight.   I have fed my large blacks on 16 percent and will now have to cut back their rations. They were only on 4 lbs per day, free ranging but it seems, even this has been too much.  Luckily it is not too late, and I can get my gilts weights down before they give birth (they have just been served).   Also on a more positive note, low protein feed is cheaper!   

The Hampshires. These were raised in a traditional meat manner (higher varying protein levels etc etc) They looked fab at porker weight so I kept a couple back for bacon.  With my 'meat' eyes on, I thought these girls looked even better so I thought I would keep them for breeding.  How wrong was I!  A meat pig is an entirely
 different pig from a breeding pig.  I have learnt a valuable lesson today. It hurts a bit. I thought I was doing ok.  uh-oh     On the upside, they will produce good bacon.  And lots of it (I need a drooling type of smile here). They are big but not over loaded on their backs.

Just thought I would share....... Hope this helps someone else

[Dan]

Why are the Hampshires too big to be decent breeding pigs?

[robert waddell]

to tired to blow this out the water tonight

[princesspiggy]

ahh poor u, i asked an experienced pony breeder what he thought of my winning / favourite mare - oops - criticism  is hard to take, even if u ask for it. but its probly true to some extent.


incidentally, we are feeding more sow rolls than growers this yr, but are noticing slower growth rates, undecided at present.


im not really qualified to say, but id guess that a good breeding pig is down to conformation of legs, underline, teats, back etc in an ability to produce alot of large litters over many years  etc where as a meat pig would be size of hams, length of back etc.
the combinations of some hybrids are - breed x as its a good mother, breed y for size of body, breed z for better flavour meat, and another one for faster growth rates. etc
waiting to hear roberts reply ...


ur lucky your top pig vet will visit u, our pig vet is so busy with the big farms she wont come to mine as she has to have pig free days to prevent disease. we got  the other vet, who then didnt know what was wrong anyway. 
ul probly look back in a couple of years and see / understand what he meant, experience takes time 

[Mrs Snoodles]

Why are the Hampshires too big to be decent breeding pigs?

He reckons they won't produce consistently decent litters, well.  Teats are all good, confirmation lovely but they just got too big.  I asked if we could slim them down, would it make a difference and he thinks not, even though they are not round.

Princess Piggy - I didn't really think of it all as criticism tbh. I know this vet well and I value his opinions - he's been heavily involved with the pig industry for years as well as keeping his own rare breeds.
  I had thought that the girls were a bit large tbh especially as I had been looking at other, admittedly
commercially farmed, gilts and sows nearby.    It's just that they started looking a bit deeper and we all thought the teats were getting bigger.....such hope!  There is a chance that he is wrong of course, and he obv advised that gilts can drop late, but even if we get this first litter they will still be sent. Ive got to make money and get the breeding stock right.  My large blacks are good, which is some consolation.  I brought them as breeding stock and reared them as such.

[Mrs Snoodles]

to tired to blow this out the water tonight

Don't forget that a vet spends his working life dealing with mistakes and misfortune.
 They see it all.

[robert waddell]

well first the vet has to be identified   but as you say he deals with the problems in pigs and other animals      and also what princess says about her horse is true as well
 
take for instance the great yorkshire show    saddelback classes    these Can have up to 30 entries
that is thirty breeders that have a very good pig      or at the start of judging believe there pig can do it         the saddelback is only taken as an example  as they have the largest classes at the GYS

[Mr Pig]

The problem with 'big' pigs is that a sow or gilt lays down fat around the ovaries which makes conception much more difficult and when it does occur can result in smaller litters. A sow can be slimmed down but if a gilts gets too big and hasn't conceived by 12 or 14 months old, it's much harder to get her in pig at all.

[Tamsaddle]

I am quite amazed that if you are only feeding 4 lbs a day of normal 16% sow nuts, your Hampshires have ended up too big for breeding.   It sounds like near starvation rations.  Ours usually get fed a max of 5.25 lbs a day at about 8 months old +, and none have had problems conceiving either as gilts or sows (Saddleback and Tamworth), but perhaps Hampshires need a totally different feeding regime.   Were they too big in terms of being too fat, if so is this fat visible on the outside, or their frame size, or what?    Are you still going to try to get them pregnant even though the vet has said they are too big?   Tamsaddle

[Mrs Snoodles]

tamsaddle .... I know what you mean. I have kept their rations down ever since we thought we might try and breed from them. My husband used to nag me about upping their feed all the blinkin' time.  They have been on pasture, so this would have added to their diet but only 10-15 percent max.   They looked so fit tbh. There a lots of people around them, and a track nearby so if anyone would walk past and chat, tractor come through whatever, they could be seen galavanting around, then doing that mad full charge thing.

Having said this, they started off as store pigs and for the first 7/8 months were raised as such. Maybe it is a case of too much growth early on that leads to the problems around the reproductive system, as Mr Pig said.

Looking at them this morning with my husband, they are big. But all over, and we both think that their shape has changed in the past few months since being in with boar.    Maybe we will get lucky and get a litter out of them.  But afterwards, I will send them to slaughter. I had some unfulfilled orders in July so at least these customers will be happy.

I'll go with the vets advice. I'm not in the business of naming names on the Internet, but I'll go with someone who has spent most of his working life at the top of the pig world.  His, and the slaughter mans/ butcher whose family has been in business for 150 years. 

[princesspiggy]

by big - do u mean growth wise or weight wise?
our dorothy is a big girl, tall and sturdy, and lives on a much smaller amount than some of our other girls. shes not overweight tho.

[Mrs Snoodles]

I'm going to measure them soon and get an idea of weight.  I'll need to work out how I am going to process and sell their meat.  I don't reckon selling them as halves will do me any favours I'll need to sell cuts and smaller boxes to lesson my loss.  I just hope now, that although they are too big for breeding, there is not masses of fat on the carcasses. Mind you I always have a needless panic about this.

I think they look big at the front, their bellies are in line with their shoulders, not rounding out. Their hind legs look big.

My husband remembers seeing their sow, who was gigantic. They are from a litter of 15.

[robert waddell]

as a pedigree breeder  it never ceases to amaze me that people will breed from what can only be described as as crap pigs then claim that there lineage is pedigree     wrong wrong wrong
 
with any pedigree litter the piglets are born   then the first selection is on markings  do they comply with the breed standard as per the type of markings that is associated with that pig
next selection process is underlines  12 14 or 16 evenly spaced teats   even the boars    by this time you will be lucky to have 2 or even 4 perfect pigs  by 8 weeks the legs are asses-ed and the future growth of these pigs should be able to be identified  your 4 could be down to 1 or maybe 2 by this time weaning
 
all piglets should be birth notified to keep that sows records up to date   only the good ones should be bred from and registered    also no use breeding from a piglet that its mother consistently has small litters    take a chance if you want but better not spend your money on it when there are better available
 
feeding is up to the individual keepers  low food input will give you low weight gain    where as a feed at a higher rate the will grow quicker Finnish earlier and get to the boar earlier as well all at a cost saving to you
 
ideally you want them farrowing at from 11 months to 13 months
 
and if they are for meat that is where they should go  none of this cutsie factor   get them slaughtered you are not doing yourself any favours  or the breed   as you have posted already
 
Hampshire's are a big pig our boar is 345 kilos at 2 years old and that is not shovelling food in in fact he has spent the last month in a wood on 2 lbs a day of nuts      and the Hampshire sow that was champion at westmoorland was nearer 450 kilos   and very broad at both shoulders
 
not every pig can conceive or have active sperm
 
so once again a list for all
pedigree and check the paperwork
markings for that breed
underlines
feet and legs
litter size from both parents
temperament of sow and boar
have they won any shows or prizes
 
unless the above can get a full list of ticks  you are only breeding crap to breed more crap
 
 
 

[Beewyched]

A little harsh on the wording Robert 
But ...
I totally agree with everything you have posted here 
Exactly the same goes for the KKs (except markings of course    ) & the timing of putting gilts to the boar (10 - 14 months, depending on maturity).
   

[Tamsaddle]

Are you saying Robert that there should be quite different feeding programme for piglets destined for breeding and those destined for meat, right from the beginning?   Mrs. Snoodles' pigs have been deemed unsuitable for breeding on the grounds of their size, not markings, underlines, teats or legs.  Tamsaddle