The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: Mrs Snoodles on September 13, 2012, 07:42:20 pm
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I got an awful lot of advice from our vet today. He is one of the top pig vets in the country so I thought I would share his views.
Basically, he had a good look at my pigs today. My Hampshires and not in pig and too big to be decent breeding sows. My large blacks are just about OK. Well, a couple are really fine, the others are as big as they need to be.
In his opinion, rare breed breeding pigs should only have their protein upped between 6 and 10 weeks, when they are weaning off Mums rich milk. After this, he has advised me to get my pigs on the lowest protein sow diet, 14 percent if possible, and to watch their weight. I have fed my large blacks on 16 percent and will now have to cut back their rations. They were only on 4 lbs per day, free ranging but it seems, even this has been too much. Luckily it is not too late, and I can get my gilts weights down before they give birth (they have just been served). Also on a more positive note, low protein feed is cheaper! :thumbsup:
The Hampshires. These were raised in a traditional meat manner (higher varying protein levels etc etc) They looked fab at porker weight so I kept a couple back for bacon. With my 'meat' eyes on, I thought these girls looked even better so I thought I would keep them for breeding. How wrong was I! A meat pig is an entirely
different pig from a breeding pig. I have learnt a valuable lesson today. It hurts a bit. I thought I was doing ok. uh-oh :gloomy: On the upside, they will produce good bacon. And lots of it (I need a drooling type of smile here). They are big but not over loaded on their backs.
Just thought I would share....... Hope this helps someone else :)
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Why are the Hampshires too big to be decent breeding pigs?
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to tired to blow this out the water tonight :farmer:
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ahh poor u, i asked an experienced pony breeder what he thought of my winning / favourite mare - oops - criticism is hard to take, even if u ask for it. but its probly true to some extent.
incidentally, we are feeding more sow rolls than growers this yr, but are noticing slower growth rates, undecided at present.
im not really qualified to say, but id guess that a good breeding pig is down to conformation of legs, underline, teats, back etc in an ability to produce alot of large litters over many years etc where as a meat pig would be size of hams, length of back etc.
the combinations of some hybrids are - breed x as its a good mother, breed y for size of body, breed z for better flavour meat, and another one for faster growth rates. etc
waiting to hear roberts reply ... :excited: :excited: ;)
ur lucky your top pig vet will visit u, our pig vet is so busy with the big farms she wont come to mine as she has to have pig free days to prevent disease. we got the other vet, who then didnt know what was wrong anyway. ::)
ul probly look back in a couple of years and see / understand what he meant, experience takes time :D ;)
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Why are the Hampshires too big to be decent breeding pigs?
He reckons they won't produce consistently decent litters, well. Teats are all good, confirmation lovely but they just got too big. I asked if we could slim them down, would it make a difference and he thinks not, even though they are not round.
Princess Piggy - I didn't really think of it all as criticism tbh. I know this vet well and I value his opinions - he's been heavily involved with the pig industry for years as well as keeping his own rare breeds.
I had thought that the girls were a bit large tbh especially as I had been looking at other, admittedly
commercially farmed, gilts and sows nearby. It's just that they started looking a bit deeper and we all thought the teats were getting bigger.....such hope! There is a chance that he is wrong of course, and he obv advised that gilts can drop late, but even if we get this first litter they will still be sent. Ive got to make money and get the breeding stock right. My large blacks are good, which is some consolation. I brought them as breeding stock and reared them as such.
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to tired to blow this out the water tonight :farmer:
Don't forget that a vet spends his working life dealing with mistakes and misfortune.
They see it all.
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well first the vet has to be identified but as you say he deals with the problems in pigs and other animals and also what princess says about her horse is true as well
take for instance the great yorkshire show saddelback classes these Can have up to 30 entries
that is thirty breeders that have a very good pig or at the start of judging believe there pig can do it the saddelback is only taken as an example as they have the largest classes at the GYS :farmer:
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The problem with 'big' pigs is that a sow or gilt lays down fat around the ovaries which makes conception much more difficult and when it does occur can result in smaller litters. A sow can be slimmed down but if a gilts gets too big and hasn't conceived by 12 or 14 months old, it's much harder to get her in pig at all.
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I am quite amazed that if you are only feeding 4 lbs a day of normal 16% sow nuts, your Hampshires have ended up too big for breeding. It sounds like near starvation rations. Ours usually get fed a max of 5.25 lbs a day at about 8 months old +, and none have had problems conceiving either as gilts or sows (Saddleback and Tamworth), but perhaps Hampshires need a totally different feeding regime. Were they too big in terms of being too fat, if so is this fat visible on the outside, or their frame size, or what? Are you still going to try to get them pregnant even though the vet has said they are too big? Tamsaddle
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tamsaddle .... I know what you mean. I have kept their rations down ever since we thought we might try and breed from them. My husband used to nag me about upping their feed all the blinkin' time. They have been on pasture, so this would have added to their diet but only 10-15 percent max. They looked so fit tbh. There a lots of people around them, and a track nearby so if anyone would walk past and chat, tractor come through whatever, they could be seen galavanting around, then doing that mad full charge thing.
Having said this, they started off as store pigs and for the first 7/8 months were raised as such. Maybe it is a case of too much growth early on that leads to the problems around the reproductive system, as Mr Pig said.
Looking at them this morning with my husband, they are big. But all over, and we both think that their shape has changed in the past few months since being in with boar. Maybe we will get lucky and get a litter out of them. But afterwards, I will send them to slaughter. I had some unfulfilled orders in July so at least these customers will be happy.
I'll go with the vets advice. I'm not in the business of naming names on the Internet, but I'll go with someone who has spent most of his working life at the top of the pig world. His, and the slaughter mans/ butcher whose family has been in business for 150 years.
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by big - do u mean growth wise or weight wise?
our dorothy is a big girl, tall and sturdy, and lives on a much smaller amount than some of our other girls. shes not overweight tho.
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I'm going to measure them soon and get an idea of weight. I'll need to work out how I am going to process and sell their meat. I don't reckon selling them as halves will do me any favours :( I'll need to sell cuts and smaller boxes to lesson my loss. I just hope now, that although they are too big for breeding, there is not masses of fat on the carcasses. Mind you I always have a needless panic about this.
I think they look big at the front, their bellies are in line with their shoulders, not rounding out. Their hind legs look big.
My husband remembers seeing their sow, who was gigantic. They are from a litter of 15.
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as a pedigree breeder it never ceases to amaze me that people will breed from what can only be described as as crap pigs then claim that there lineage is pedigree wrong wrong wrong
with any pedigree litter the piglets are born then the first selection is on markings do they comply with the breed standard as per the type of markings that is associated with that pig
next selection process is underlines 12 14 or 16 evenly spaced teats even the boars by this time you will be lucky to have 2 or even 4 perfect pigs by 8 weeks the legs are asses-ed and the future growth of these pigs should be able to be identified your 4 could be down to 1 or maybe 2 by this time weaning
all piglets should be birth notified to keep that sows records up to date only the good ones should be bred from and registered also no use breeding from a piglet that its mother consistently has small litters take a chance if you want but better not spend your money on it when there are better available
feeding is up to the individual keepers low food input will give you low weight gain where as a feed at a higher rate the will grow quicker Finnish earlier and get to the boar earlier as well all at a cost saving to you
ideally you want them farrowing at from 11 months to 13 months
and if they are for meat that is where they should go none of this cutsie factor get them slaughtered you are not doing yourself any favours or the breed as you have posted already
Hampshire's are a big pig our boar is 345 kilos at 2 years old and that is not shovelling food in in fact he has spent the last month in a wood on 2 lbs a day of nuts and the Hampshire sow that was champion at westmoorland was nearer 450 kilos and very broad at both shoulders
not every pig can conceive or have active sperm
so once again a list for all
pedigree and check the paperwork
markings for that breed
underlines
feet and legs
litter size from both parents
temperament of sow and boar
have they won any shows or prizes
unless the above can get a full list of ticks you are only breeding crap to breed more crap :farmer:
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A little harsh on the wording Robert :eyelashes:
But ...
I totally agree with everything you have posted here :thumbsup:
Exactly the same goes for the KKs (except markings of course ;D ) & the timing of putting gilts to the boar (10 - 14 months, depending on maturity).
:love: :pig: :love:
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Are you saying Robert that there should be quite different feeding programme for piglets destined for breeding and those destined for meat, right from the beginning? Mrs. Snoodles' pigs have been deemed unsuitable for breeding on the grounds of their size, not markings, underlines, teats or legs. Tamsaddle
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what surprises me more is of the two breeds Mrs snoodles has the Hampshire has went fat and the large blacks are in her vets opinion just right the Hampshire is world renowned as a lean pig it could be he seen or her a lot of washboard examples of pigs
strange world but then we are living in strange times :farmer:
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wer all intrigued - how about some fotos?? :eyelashes: :eyelashes:
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wer all intrigued - how about some fotos?? :eyelashes: :eyelashes:
Good idea Julia :thumbsup:
Piccys & measurements please :wave:
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I would definitely go for different feeding patterns according to purpose.
Robert, these pigs are not from a pedigree litter. They were brought in as store pigs and we thought they looked pretty good, were aware of the sows history and went down the breeding path. No cutsie factor. We are only breeding these for meat.
As you know they are the butchers favourite and get big very nicely. Our thoughts were that we could get the litters to pork weight quickly, even outdoors. Less money spent means we could offer halves well reared, free range pork, gone to a local slaughterhouse at a really good price at a time when people are hard hit.
This is why we wanted to breed these pigs. We had no intentions of selling any weaners. We wanted all stock for meat. They were put to the boar at the right time, and are sound with good teats and were fit and healthy. I have messed up, feeding them. A pig fed for fattening is no go for breeding.
My post is about feeding. Not breeding lineage.
I don't think these pigs are crap stock. I've seen enough. My mistake was in their feeding regime
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what surprises me more is of the two breeds Mrs snoodles has the Hampshire has went fat and the large blacks are in her vets opinion just right the Hampshire is world renowned as a lean pig it could be he seen or her a lot of washboard examples of pigs
strange world but then we are living in strange times :farmer:
Not really strange at all. The Hampshires were fed for meat initially, then we changed our minds. The large blacks have always been considered as breeding stock so never ever got near high protein food. Simples.
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wer all intrigued - how about some fotos?? :eyelashes: :eyelashes:
Would love to but have no idea how too. Working off an iPad as Internet works a bit better, although pretty dire anyway.
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we feed them to live it is what they do with the food that matters
if you have pure stock it does what it says on the label without the cushion of a pedigree you cannot say for definate it is what breed you claim there was a similar thread about the essex pig and that was blown out the water sad and maybe a bit harsh for the poster but there you go
commercial pigs are fed ad lib
and you have said it yourself you bought them as store pigs and as the saying goes you cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear :farmer:
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. A pig fed for fattening is no go for breeding.
I must admit, I have never fed differently between breeding and fattening stock, I work by eye, and up or lower the food according to how the pig looks. I agree with Mr pig that too fat and it could be unlikely to get in pig, but otherwise I have never fed differently.
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. A pig fed for fattening is no go for breeding.
I must admit, I have never fed differently between breeding and fattening stock, I work by eye, and up or lower the food according to how the pig looks. I agree with Mr pig that too fat and it could be unlikely to get in pig, but otherwise I have never fed differently.
Me too Liz :thumbsup: - feeding by eye is always the best way IMHO, especially with KKs. I only differ it for nursing or weather/foraging conditions :love: :pig: :love:
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i must be missing something here, iv only had british pigs so bear with me.
i know commercials are fed ablib as they r bred to put on muscle rather than fat.
i know hampshire are less likely to put on fat than british natives.
now have the hampshire grown too much muscle? or are they over weight?
if its the latter, u wouldnt want a fat pig or for breeding or meat,
anyhow chin up, we live and learn :wave: :wave: think how good ul feel when u get it right next time! ;D ;D
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We feed our meat pigs and our show pigs, who are our breeding stock, different. Meat are kept on the leaner side so the meat isnt too fatty but the show pigs (breeders) are kept better covered. I dont understand how your Hampshires are no good for breeding? Just intrigued and interested to know the thinking behind it. I understand that if they are too fat and empty for too long they could find it difficult to get in pig. Could understand the other way round if it had been said they were too big for porkers but can't get the too big for breeding. :)
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unless raison the vet actually meant by saying they were too big, that they were in fact too fat, surely that would make more sense. It would be good if mrs snoodles elaborated on the big bit and explained what the vet actually meant by big, was it size or what??
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If they are a bit overweight they will still get pregnant, might have a small litter but you can get weight off them easily when they are nursing. Don't put the feed up too much and they will use fat reserves to produce milk.
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We feed our pigs the same (low protein) feed too - our vet and our pig mentor said that traditional breeds of pig didn't need "high protein" feeds - these were developed for the very fast growing, lean commercial pigs. The only differences are:
the young (growing) pigs get less fruit/veg in their diet until 5 months. Then the meat pigs get a bit more apple pomace to help them finish well.
The lactating sows get waste goats milk
The mangalitzas get less of everything except bulk as they put on fat so easily.
We feed by eye too - but it took us a few chubby pigs to learn. If you're struggling to estimate how fat your pigs are, and you've got a vet out to scan anything on your holding, get them to scan the back fat depth on your pigs - very educational! (Or you could "borrow" one from your local maternity unit - not that I'd ever do that, of course!) :innocent:
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Tiva Diva....our vet said the same about modern foods, and they are seeing it across a variety of animals. Feed being too rich/good for youngsters and traditional breeds. I am now on the hunt for an even lower protein feed or as, you have done, look at ways of mixing up the existing 16 percent with additional extras.
It's not a new way of thinking. I have working dogs and the debate surrounding the latest puppy foods and the early stages of growth in labradors is pretty hot. Obv doesn't relate to fat being laid down, but to muscle growth and detrimental weight on forming bone structures blah blah blah....
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Mrs Snoodles - a lot of us on this thread are still unclear whether your Hampshire pigs were considered too fat, or too tall/long/solid/generally enormous structure? Which did your vet mean? If too fat, was it visible fat, or invisible fat around the ovaries? Tamsaddle
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maybe a picture may help us all with this one i would like to know how a Hampshire if pure can get to fat other than feeding to much
the content of pig food has been debated many times on here there is 14% 16% 18% and 22% we feed 16% but adjust rations accordingly and can get a growth or weight of betwean 10 and 12 kilos a week on the Hampshire's our feed supplier is amazed at this from sow nuts (they have a commercial pig herd as well)
irrespective of what percentage protein you feed if you water it down by including other low protein feeds the growth rate and the available amino acids are just not there
the feed is mainly grain some company's include bread or biscuit in there mix it should say on the feed label what the contents are
grain only diets will produce fat as it does not contain enough amino acids for the pig to convert to meat/muscle
sawdust is the best inclusion in pig feed as it bulks them up and they still get some proper pig food to maintain them :farmer:
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Sawdust?????????????????? :o
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Mrs S, Are you maybe getting mixed up between the Saddleback and the Hampshire ??? the difference is the Saddleback has lop ears and not much of a back end and are definately much fattier than the Hampshire, :o have a look at the hampshire bacon it does have the rind on it so there is no question of telling lies about the amount of fat it has :thumbsup:
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I must admit, I have never fed differently between breeding and fattening stock, I work by eye, and up or lower the food according to how the pig looks. I agree with Mr pig that too fat and it could be unlikely to get in pig, but otherwise I have never fed differently.
have to say i'm with Linda on this one i feed by eye too now i guess its just down to the experience of the pig keeper.
mandy :pig:
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Sawdust? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? :o
supermodels eat cottonwool to stay skinny
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supermodels eat cottonwool to stay skinny
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:roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
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no Robert just don't go there :roflanim:
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no Robert just don't go there :roflanim:
Excellent self-control there Robert ;) :roflanim:
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Just a quick up date. Checked the grass pasture they have been on. straight rye and Timothy so nothing special there. Asked around to see if anyone had thought they had been fed by other people, nothing there. Got back in touch with the people I brought them from. They confirmed that the sow was huge and had had a series of mammoth litters. They have a gilt from the same litter in pig, who too is very big. They have Fed her mainly on veg shop remains and some nuts. I'm off on Thursday morning to compare measurements!
The protein level on the feed was actually 13.5 percent.
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What do you mean by veg shop remains and how much of their feed was made up this way? Things like potatoes fed disprorportionately can be very fattening.
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A week on, all change. Having spent the last 7 days a tad disappointed - it is now all systems go!
As from yesterday afternoon, one gilt is bagging up. The back teats have dropped significantly. The other is looking much the same but her belly line is lower.
The due date would be Monday so we are now working out where to move her too and getting it all ready.
Visited the breeder who spent her working life as midwife to 450 sows :thumbsup: Lots of advice :). Her gilt (litter mate to ours) is basically the same height, length and width behind shoulders. Hers is leaner, but was put in pig early Aug. Have shown some pics and she reckons our gilts are fine, yes a bit big :innocent: but she thinks some of it could be down to litter size - the gilts sow had gigantic litters,usually 14 or 15.
Skates on!
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is that the Hampshire or the large black that is bagging up :farmer:
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Hampshires. I have 2. The large blacks have only just been put to the the boar. We are unsure of when the second Hampshire would be due tbh. Although she looks smaller underneath she could change just as quickly as the other seems to be doing - we're playing safe and transferring both to separate farrowing arks and new ground tomorrow, next to each other. We've knocked the crate idea on the head as it all seems a bit too late and stressful. We can put them on nice ground, extend it out at a later date to cover veg that needs a good sorting ;D and it is already wired up. Just got to position the massively heavy insulated arks and move the ladies in the trailer.
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thats all so good. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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to go back to your original post and the start of all the replies your vet is an eminent pig vet but cant tell that a pig is in pig that could in part be due to not keeping accurate records of when the gilts went to the boar if i were you i would be going on westmoorland show site and look for pictures of john sutcliffs champion sow she was big
:farmer:
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Just got to position the massively heavy insulated arks and move the ladies in the trailer.
Is moving them in a trailer your only option ? Is there no way they could walk the distance ?
Depending on how used to the trailer they are, it could be quite stressful for them. I try to avoid moving mine in a trailer for the first and last 4 weeks of pregnancy.
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Just got to position the massively heavy insulated arks and move the ladies in the trailer.
Is moving them in a trailer your only option ? Is there no way they could walk the distance ?
Depending on how used to the trailer they are, it could be quite stressful for them. I try to avoid moving mine in a trailer for the first and last 4 weeks of pregnancy.
I'll have a good think about that.....it's not far to go and there is electric either side (other paddocks and veg crop areas) a bit of a distance but which she will be wary of. Then it is just a case of getting her into the courtyard. The most difficult part will be convincing her to go over the electric fence line/gate. It won't be there but they always seem to be so wary of inching forward.
We have actually found a brilliant space for her to farrow and stay in as long as needs be (although it would be good to get her in the farrowing ark asap afterwards) A kind of indoor/outdoor area. Well sheltered and where we can get a heat lamp into the corner and a creche area set up. A nice space :) Just in the middle of prep now but needed a break. Typically we were up in the night....my little chap had nightmares. Has never happened before but hey presto when we have so much to do today ...
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to go back to your original post and the start of all the replies your vet is an eminent pig vet but cant tell that a pig is in pig that could in part be due to not keeping accurate records of when the gilts went to the boar if i were you i would be going on westmoorland show site and look for pictures of john sutcliffs champion sow she was big
:farmer:
Think that is a tad unfair.gilts can show late, very late as he did mention. Gilt went to boar on the jubilee. Party in the paddock.
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gilts as with most young stock show earlier than mature ones
by my calculation if she was served on going to the boar she is due on or from 26 September :farmer:
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gilts as with most young stock show earlier than mature ones
by my calculation if she was served on going to the boar she is due on or from 26 September :farmer:
i agree with robert gilts will show earlier than sows. i dont think i would trust a vet if he cant tell a fat pig from one in pig. if i were you i would be ringing him to tell him my fat pig had farrowed.
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I'll have a good think about that.....it's not far to go and there is electric either side (other paddocks and veg crop areas) a bit of a distance but which she will be wary of. Then it is just a case of getting her into the courtyard. The most difficult part will be convincing her to go over the electric fence line/gate. It won't be there but they always seem to be so wary of inching forward.
You've probably tried this already, but putting a straw 'path' over where the electric fence was sometimes helps ;)
Your indoor/outdoor area sounds ideal (and hey, I can sympathise about trying to get stuff done with kids ::) I have 4 :o :D) We keep the piglets in for at least a week normally then, as long as it's reasonably dry & mild, get them out into the field with mum - in the wet, damp, cold weather we tend to keep them in a little bit longer :thumbsup:
I found my OSB gilt didn't show til about 10 days before she farrowed first time round, since then it's been easy to spot :innocent: But every pig is different and just when you think you've got them all figured out they go and do something to surprise you ::) Pigs eh, gotta love 'em :roflanim:
Keep us posted with developments, and photo's.......... we all love piglet piccies :excited: :excited: :excited:
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We have had tamworth gilts that don't show until the last minute. ;D
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We've had a pretty eventful weekend. We gave the trailer a go, in the end as we were tight for time. thankfully no problems at all, she loaded like a dream (literally straight uop). The gilt is now in her new space, with tarpaulin hung up to keep this horrible weather out. We've rigged up a good lamp and she's got some lovely fresh barley straw. Various people around the farm come to see her and give veg, treats etc :innocent:, and she seems very happy. Quite talkative but then happily busying herself with nest building. She managed to pull off some of the barn's timber frame to add to her abode :o
Amazingly, we met someone today who was an ex pig farmer in the States. He had 1700 Hampshires when he was younger. Just got chatting basically, then he came over to see our girl. Good news for us..... He reckoned she was 'just fine looking' :love:, just how she should be at this stage and not to worry about the weight as all of it would fall off anyway. He thinks that she is not as close to pig as we think, not Monday anyway. It would be nice if she had a bit more time to get used to her new surroundings.
Will keep you posted. This American farmer told me to be happy with 6-8 piglets the first time round, that's what they used to get. Bigger litters later.
What a turnaround. Going to the vets tomorrow ;) got to get a medical kit together.
Btw..... What calendar do people work to on here? I have seen 114 days to 119. I took my dates from Tony York's. Guess it is not an exact science anyway....all down to mother nature.
Cheers all. Very excited :excited:. School have given permission for my little chap to be hauled out at anytime to come and watch. He's keen to camp out for the rest of the week and miss school altogether, cheeky whatsit
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Ours seem always to be a couple of days 'late' by the 3 months 3 weeks 3 days count. I think its mainly to give me a couple of sleepless nights beforehand to get me properly in the mood. Our eldest (4yrs) was keen to see the last farrowing so we woke him up and he came out in his pyjamas, wellies and coat for a look when it finally got going... There's something magical about sharing such experience with your kids so I hope yours gets to watch and maybe help.
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http://www.gestationcalculator.com/other/pig-pregnancy-calculator (http://www.gestationcalculator.com/other/pig-pregnancy-calculator)
i use this one, but dorothy was a good 4 days late this year. too. ;D ;D ;D
rem they dont all bag up, cos our pepper didnt until a about day 4 after they were born but she did have milk tho. just no boobies.
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114 days
there is a table on the net type in swine gestation table if i remember rightly its showtime shires that published it but i cant find mine to check :innocent: