Agri Vehicles Insurance from Greenlands

Author Topic: which vehicles to get?  (Read 18450 times)

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: which vehicles to get?
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2012, 10:34:11 pm »
it is well documented on the use of tractors and what you should comply with
if a contractor cuts rows up silage and chops then carts that grass to the pit that is an allowed activity
if the farmer cuts it and rows it up  and the contractor chops and carts it that is considered haulage and as such requires derv tacho and drivers log  :farmer:

old ploughman

  • Joined Jun 2010
Re: which vehicles to get?
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2012, 10:58:58 pm »
WRONG! Chopping the grass (though it is irrelevant) is an agricultural operation and the subsequent haulage to clamp is legal on red diesel and no tacho or drivers hours needed. In fact, any operation where the hauled product is taken to store is allowed on red diesel, no tacho, no hours required. An example - it is common for contractors to supply tractor and driver only to haul farmers own trailers when potatoes are harvested by the farmers own harvester (same applies to combining). This activity is entirely legal and can be carried out on red diesel, no tacho or drivers hours. However, that same contractor cannot legally transport the same potatoes (or grain) when transported from store to market/processor - that is haulage and derv must be used. There is however no requirement for an agricultural tractor to have a tacho fitted or the driver to record hours for this operation as long as it travels under the restrictions of an agricultural tractor. The farmer however can transport the same goods to the market/processor legally on red as it is his own produce.

Before you start accusing people of leading a sheltered life or not being clued up, perhaps you should check your 'facts'

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: which vehicles to get?
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2012, 11:10:15 pm »
what i was quoting was from articles in the farmers weekly  it has been printed twice now
it is the whole operation that counts
but you did agree with me on the market scenario
even landrovers require tachos for certain situations
and again landrovers can legally run on red in certain situations :farmer:

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: which vehicles to get?
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2012, 11:27:40 pm »
and the point of the quote is  :farmer:

Small Farmer

  • Joined Jan 2012
  • Bedfordshire
Re: which vehicles to get?
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2012, 12:23:29 am »
There's two points here - use of red diesel and operator licensing - and they have nothing to do with each other except that when you take the 12,000 pages of tax legislation and overlay it with Defra's liking for complexity and all the fun of operator licensing you're going to produce authentic frontier gibberish which no-one can understand. 

In Jan 2008 HMRC published the results of a year's work with the NFU etc working out which of the things that people did with tractors could be done using red diesel.  They came up with a Memorandum of Agreement which is how the various pieces of legislation should be interpreted by HMRC or the old Bill when you get pulled over.

See http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_ShowContent&propertyType=document&id=HMCE_CL_000164#P36_1845 for the whole shebang, in particular the Appendix in section 10 for the Memorandum of Agreement.

Cutting to the chase you can take animals to market using red diesel but you can't then transport them once sold unless you use taxed fuel.  The relevant bit says

QUOTE
Movement of produce and livestock
Transportation of agricultural, horticultural or forestry produce within or between different areas of land occupied by the same person.
Transportation of livestock within or between different areas of land occupied by the same person.
Transport of agricultural, horticultural or forestry produce from the place of production or temporary storage.
Transport of livestock to a place where the produce is to be sold or slaughtered.
The transportation of produce must be incidental to an agricultural, horticultural or forestry operation being performed on the land. The onus is on the person transporting the load to demonstrate that this is the case.

Transportation of produce which requires an Operator’s Licence may not be accepted as being incidental.

Transportation on public roads of produce or livestock by a contractor employed solely for that purpose is not included within this agreement.
UNQUOTE

The issue of tachographs is entirely separate and falls under operator licensing legislation.  On which point it is technically possible for a Range Rover or Toyota Landcruiser to need a tacho in very extreme circumstances when towing for profit but that's because of their ludicrous weight.  I don't think any of the Land Rovers is quite heavy  enough yet.
Being certain just means you haven't got all the facts

old ploughman

  • Joined Jun 2010
Re: which vehicles to get?
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2012, 12:29:07 am »
and the point is - I was researching my answers, something you have not!

Tachos on landrovers - yes, but not the point at issue

Market scenario - the scenario is correct because the return journey was for hire or reward (whether paid or not) and the agricultural exemption no longer applies - but irrelevant in this context - you said that tractors needed derv, tachos and drivers hours - incorrect because as soon as it is outside the exemption it is a goods vehicle not a tractor.

Has bugger all to do with the whole operation - VOSA are quite clear on what constitutes the terms of the exemption.

Printed in the Farmers Weekly - I know which I would believe, Farmers Weekly or VOSA? Only one of them would be prosecuting you.

The VOSA document here should help - http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000164&propertyType=document#P312_31283 - especially the appendix where the acceptable activities are listed.
'
After all that, I can tell you that I have only ever seen 2 fastracs fitted with tachos and both were specifically  for non-ag uses and were not classed as agricutural tractors.
The fact that you would struggle to find an agricultural tractor with a tacho fitted would suggest that your claim is false. With the number of VOSA inspections being carried out on agricultural tractors nowadays, it would be fair to assume that there would be a good list of prosecutions for non-fitment of tachos, illegal use of red diesel and lack of drivers records, but, there are not because they are not required for an agricultural tractor! You may have tried to belittle me by suggesting that I didnt know what I was talking about and you can try to worm your way out by bringing up non-agricultural operations as an example of fitting tachos etc, but you are still wrong in what you originally said.

Regards

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: which vehicles to get?
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2012, 09:47:19 am »
i think you came on here looking for an argument  and not really trying to help or assist the poster in there asking the point in the first place
the next time the farmers weekly run an article on transport with tractors i will refer them to you the font of knowledge n the subject
at least you agree with the market scenario   but fall on your sword with the tractor becoming a goods vehicle  if it becomes a goods vehicle then it has to comply with there standards FEUL/ TACHO DRIVERS LOG AND HOURS
you must have a complex i have not tried to belittle you    you are doing an excellent job of that yourself :farmer:

Castle Farm

  • Joined Nov 2008
  • Hereford/Powys Border. near Hay-on-Wye
    • castlefarmeggs
Re: which vehicles to get?
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2012, 10:52:12 am »
So! What do you think of the RAV 4 idea ;)
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lill

  • Joined May 2011
Re: which vehicles to get?
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2012, 11:32:26 am »
OP, do you not get the farmers weekly, it will be due to have the same info in it soon as it has does for the last couple of years regarding do's and don'ts of contracting, you need to chill out and be more helpful on this forum and stop getting into debates with other forum users, you are very nasty in some of you replies to RW who has a tremendous amount of knowledge on ALL aspect of life, I dare say you have also but you both need to be nicer to each other when posting your replies, someone needs to tell you both off, FFS behave yourselves and agree to disagree. Yes a good debate is fine but it goes too far sometimes. This is a good going debate but it getting too serious. OP you think your version is correct, RW you think your version is correct, ok both of you, why don't you both just leave it at that.

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: which vehicles to get?
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2012, 11:39:24 am »
rav 4 what is the towing limit with it :farmer:

mab

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • carmarthenshire
Re: which vehicles to get?
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2012, 08:36:46 pm »
So! What do you think of the RAV 4 idea ;)

Alas: for on road use: Rav4's are not tax exempt/cheap to insure for occasional use and have a towing limit of 1500Kg not 3500Kg, so I still think the series landy is the better option.

for off road use - well, maybe - can you fit a PTO to one?   ;D ;D

I hope I've not stirred up any trouble with my enquiries  ;) - I think everyone's trying to give the facts to the best of their knowledge as to what you can and cannot do with a tractor on red diesel. Given the murky and over-legislated world of tax law and defra rules it would be a miracle if everyone knew what's right  ::)

But I think my question has been answered:-  I CAN use a tractor on red to take my produce to market  :thumbsup: , but CANNOT then do a buyer the favor of delivering the same livestock to their place - at least not for money. Which means I can manage without a 4x4 for now (though I suspect I cannot use to tractor on red to go to the shops in the snow - I'll have to read up on those links to answer that  ::) ).

Thanks for sharing your hard-won expertise on this - I guess I ahould do my own research for more details, but I can now focus on tractors and leave the landy for when the right one comes along.

mab

Small Farmer

  • Joined Jan 2012
  • Bedfordshire
Re: which vehicles to get?
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2012, 09:13:31 pm »
If the BMW X5 is a chelsea tractor then the RAV4 is a chelsea lawnmower.  Neither was designed to get muddy. 

There's nothing wrong with the RAV4: it's light and far cheaper to run than a conventional 4wd but it won't tow anything meaty and it won't have the off-road capability of the real thing.



Being certain just means you haven't got all the facts

jaykay

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Cumbria/N Yorks border
Re: which vehicles to get?
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2012, 11:18:33 pm »
The bonus about going to the shops in the snow with red diesel in the tractor is that The Plod won't be out on their tractors to catch you.

Wish I could find the photo of our staff car park one very snowy day. There was me in my then Nissan pickup, someone in a Defender, a couple of staff had walked in and the Tech teacher (another part time farmer) had come on his John Deere - I thought that was pretty dedicated  :thumbsup:

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: which vehicles to get?
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2012, 11:29:22 pm »
don't post it there will be somebody waiting to dob him in     it is a bit like a landrover site  one of the founders sons extolling this particular gentleman that  ran his landie on parafin one thing blagging your way out of a situation it is just wrong to hand somebodies arse on a plate to them :farmer:

Small Farmer

  • Joined Jan 2012
  • Bedfordshire
Re: which vehicles to get?
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2012, 11:42:45 pm »
He'll have had the snowplough on the JD.  That's OK as of January.
Being certain just means you haven't got all the facts

 

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