[landroverroy]

 Having bred working Border Collies for 20+ years, I have to agree with most of the previous posts.
    I have had one of mine trained by Barbara Sykes and she is excellent and what she says about the food is right - high protein food can make a dog  more excitable. But we are not here talking merely about excitability.
   The temperament of the mother has a great effect. I once bought a bitch that tended to nip and all her offspring had the same tendency although we treated them the same as the rest, from more placid mothers, and with which we had no problem.
  We kept a pup from the "nippy" collie as she was an excellent working dog, and the pup was too. He was brought up as a pet with my 2 lads (aged @ 9 and 10) and never teased or ill treated. He used to play football with the local kids with no problem. But once we had some friends staying. Their daughter was also @ 10 and she was sat down talking to my lads when for now apparent reason the dog jumped up and bit her face. We felt awful and realised we couldn't keep a dog that you couldn't trust with other people's children.
  We couldn't train him out of it as it was so out of the blue and he'd never done it before, so we rehomed him to a sheep farmer in the Styx somewhere who had no children likely to visit.
  The thing about collies is that for some of them nipping is as much part of their nature as is rounding up sheep. You cannot train them out of it like you can a dog that is trying to be dominant.
 So in answer to the original question - I personally wouldn't keep a dog you couldn't trust with other people's children. You can't be there all the time and you can't be sure that a child doesn't inadvertently give out the wrong signal to the dog, who instinctively reacts by biting. It is the most awful feeling to find that your dog has injured someone else's child, especially when you knew that the possibility was there.     
 

[goosepimple]

Hmm..thanks again all, that makes very interesting reading, especially after today's events : Scout was out with us and during a quiet moment she tried to get up on the kids playpark bench, was helped by my son (who did nothing untoward, we were standing beside him) and she snarled and nipped him on the face - more of a fright for my son with a small scratch to the nose.  I grabbed the dog and held her head down and shouted aggressively - she got the message, she was then put inside on her own. 
I think it's time to go in hard after reading jaykays post.  We will have to take this in hand and if it doesn't work in the next few months then we will have to reconsider the situation.  The kids love her to bits of course which makes it difficult.  Received B Sykes' book yesterday and just about read the whole thing last night.  Easy in hindsight but a BC was perhaps not the best dog to get with kids. 
I can't go to classes as OH works late all the time, we will go in hard and 'shock' her with noise etc.  I don't think classes will do the trick really, she is obedient at all the command work, that's no problem really, it's the day to day living with us.  Time will tell, I'll keep her away from other kids just now, sadly.

[YorkshireLass]

I don't personally like aversives/punishments, but that's by the by.

What I want to emphasise is that you reward her for doing good things as well - even if it is only a "sit" before going through a door etc. Life is no fun if all you get is a telling off.
Please please be careful if you punish her for grumbling and growling though - this can lead to some dogs hiding these warning signs, being pushed too far, and just snapping. Have you checked for any medical reasons why she might be in pain from being touched?
Does she play well with other dogs at all? My collie bitch is a different kind of tired after playing, compared after a long walk!

[jaykay]

That's right, don't punish a dog for grumbling - they've got to have their say about it all  I do tell mine 'that's enough' fiercely if they don't shut up after a while mind you, though with mine that's grumbling at each other.

And never do the noise/chasing thing to a dog in a confined place - they've got to be able to get away, once you've made the point.

And then when they come back, very sorry, let them and make a low-key contact with them and then get them to lie down with you and be quiet. Some very stressed BCs will fuss and fuss at this point - don't tell them off about this if so, just calm them down, gentle stokes and calm quiet voice.

[cuckoo]

I must also echo Yorkshire Lass's sentiments about using punishments/aversives - when first used these techniques on my collie it made her worse - it was only improved when we used positive training techniques - saying that obviously dogs need boundaries and thrive best when these are consistently reinforced.   I would encourage you to get advice from a suitably qualified person who can actually see your dog in the flesh and advise upon what they can actually see.

Good Luck

[Dizzycow]

This is very unhelpful and there has been loads of great advice posted before, but my experience of all collies has been considerably negative. We had two when I was growing up, one was great (we still didn't fully trust her, though) and one was dangerous and had to be destroyed. We lived near a farm where the collie would lie in hiding then rush out rabidly trying to kill the car or bike as you passed by. Some villagers locally have one which bites anyone who tries to stroke it. And out of all the others I've met over the years, the majority seem to be snappy or worse. Not a dog I'd ever have, although if you watch the lovely Cesar Millan it's down to the owner to overcome the issues, which I do agree with to a certain degree. Still wouldn't have one, though! Good luck! 

[jaykay]

They are very smart, have obsessive tendencies and a very strong prey drive. Which makes them so good at what they do.
I love them, we never had anything else at home and I have two now, my parents three.  But. And it is a big but, temperaments vary considerably. Even our friendly, people orientated ones need careful handling and I wouldn't say I'd got one of them behaving as well as I'd like. And those characteristics, when they go wrong for whatever reason, can result in a just the sort of dogs you describe Dizzy.

[Tilly]

Hi goosepimple 
  – it must be difficult and upsetting for you in this predicament ,  my thoughts on the matter........

 --I know of several border collies which have not been “cut out to be family dogs” but go on to be good working dogs in a different environment .

-- If it was me I would be thinking of the children- not much fun for them ! and neither for you if always have to be on your” guard ” when the dog is around.

-- I am not saying the bitch will not improve with the correct training\ management,  but  from how I interoperate your post” it`s in her nature” and will probably always be underlying.

Best of luck with what ever happens

Tilly 

[feldar]

Goosepimple
I don't thimk classes would work anyway certainly not multidog ones. My BC and i got sent out the room twice in one class for her being " disruptive" to the other dogs when in fact she is just so highly strung she found the whole dog class senario too much for her. she couldn't concentrate on what i wanted and she ended up snapping at other dogs and people.
She has calmed down a lot with just one to ones with me, but she still finds too many people and too many dogs very stressful

[Old Shep]

Goosepimple that is really worrying.  Did your child perhaps squeeze her in helping her onto the bench?  As with all breeds some BC's are wonderful with children and some are not, so your decision to get one wasn't wrong, this just may be the wrong dog to have around children.  For now I would separate the dog from the children for safety - cage / outside kennel / anything! - until you decide on your next move.  My next move would be to see an expert.  I know she is a few hours drive away but why not book a session with Barbara Sykes?  Or at least ring her she is very generous with advice on the phone.  Please don't wait until a child is seriously hurt, this dog would now have been put down by some people. I don't think "getting hard" will do the trick it will probably worsen the situation if she is doing it through anxiety.

[colliewoman]

Please don't go in hard, you will ruin her beyond all hope!
If you get to the stage where you feel you have no choice but to let her go, please contact The Border Collie Trust GB, they will evaluate and rehabilitate before rehoming her to a home that suits her personality, be it working or sports home. Do not feel bad if you do have to find her a new home.
Kids often make dogs, especially sensitive ones feel uncomfortable through absolutely no fault of their own, and what you and anyone else deems as untoward, unfortunately can be too much for a nervy BC to tolerate without help. Eye contact is a common one, as is any touch to the neck/chest area. It seems unfair, but it is just how some of them are, and without hands on experienced help, it is very hard to advise how to solve the problem.
If it were me, (and I have had a BC just like this RIP Tikki :love) I would for now, until you have been able to seek help allow no physical contact between dog and children.

[sabrina]

Sorry but the well being of your children must come first. You cannot keep a dog as a family pet but keep it away from the kids. find her a home with no children, with someone who understands the breed.

[goosepimple]

My word!  What a lot of information I'm reading and feeling very guilty that I didn't post about getting her in the first place - that would have been the thing to do! 
On more careful observation of ongoings and reactions to poeple coming in the room etc, it is obvious I think that she just doesn't like the kids. 
The dog herself isn't in pain about anything, is normal, friendly to everyone, playful, obedient, well exercised and is an all round good girl generally, I just don't think she likes the kids.  She will do all the sit, stay, fetch stuff with them and play with her soft ball with them etc, but her threshold with them is very short.  They are quiet types too but still... We will give her a chance but I have warned the children that there is a question mark over her and she may have to go.  If this is the case then I have said we could get another dog that is more 'pet' friendly - we're not going down that route at the moment however.  It is possible that we could rehome her with a shepherd to become a working dog, she is at a good age to train for this and is obedient around sheep and we are bound to find one in our area.
Thank you all so much for your contributions, what a learning curve, pity I didn't post pre-dog

[jaykay]

Is she trying to be higher than them in the pecking order do you think?

[SallyintNorth]

Is she trying to be higher than them in the pecking order do you think?

Or does she just regard them as 'littermates', which she would nip at to tell them how she's feeling?