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Author Topic: Border Collie snapping help please  (Read 25731 times)

goosepimple

  • Joined May 2010
  • nr Lauder, Scottish Borders
Border Collie snapping help please
« on: January 04, 2012, 01:08:52 pm »
Help please, our bc is a neutered 14mth lovely bitch - we got her just before last Christmas, so had her just over a year.  She has never really tolerated the kids that well (they are 10 and 8 and are quite quiet types) and we have assumed that perhaps she saw herself being above them.  We have been doing a series of psychological exercises (via info from a dog training dvd), such as my OH greeting everyone in the house before her, kids giving her breakfast etc but she is still very snappy.  We don't go near her now if she's sleepy as she isn't happy about being woken.  She even gave my OH (who deals with her most) a nip on Christmas day.  We're not soft with her, she gets loads of quality play time and runs around with us outside all day.  I'm a bit worried she nips one of the kids or their friends which would unfortunately mean her demise.  The kids love her to bits or I would pass her on and generally she is lovely natured.  Any ideas?  Thanks for reading.
registered soay, castlemilk moorit  and north ronaldsay sheep, pygmy goats, steinbacher geese, muscovy ducks, various hens, lots of visiting mallards, a naughty border collie, a puss and a couple of guinea pigs

Rosemary

  • Joined Oct 2007
  • Barry, Angus, Scotland
    • The Accidental Smallholder
Re: Border Collie snapping help please
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2012, 01:11:14 pm »
Watching this with interest as we have an 11 year old bc who has always been nippy and aggressive. We've never managed to sort it but haven't given up hope  :)

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Border Collie snapping help please
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2012, 03:21:56 pm »
So sorry to hear of your problems with this collie, goosepimple.  :bouquet:   

I had a rescue BC-cross who nipped some people some of the time.  I sought advice.

Here is the advice and what happened.

I asked John Cree, he of Police Dog / Working Trial training fame, and he was incredibly generous with his time and thought.  From asking a lot of questions, John established that it was nervous aggression and not a generally nasty dog.  (From your description I can't determine which it is in your girl's case; ours never ever looked even close to nipping us.)

John gave us suggestions for making a safe haven for the dog to which it could always retreat and basically hide, and could be certain that no-one would ever come to it there or make it feel nervous there.  I've talked about this before on another thread here.

He also advised that we should not be with the dog the whole time, so that he was a bit more self-reliant and less dependent on us and our presence.

It all did make a big difference, and the dog stayed.

Prior to this, an experienced dog handler in our village had given us the benefit of her experience, saying that she had had a similar situation years earlier, had done everything she could, but in the end the dog still nipped and she had had to have it put down.  She'd tried for so long that it really broke her up having to give up on it.  She was hoping that by telling us her story she would save us some of the same pain.

Sadly, over time, the dog did begin to leave his safe areas and sneak up behind people who were not in any way threatening him - or even on his territory - and nip.  So we did have to have him put down.  At that time, that was the hardest decision I had ever had to make.  A vet friend of mine had told me years earlier that collies congenitally nipped, they were bred that way to nip the sheep on the backs of the legs to chivvy them along - and that the most common serious wounding caused by nipping collies was not, as you might imagine, missing noses or scarred faces - but damage to the penis and testicles of little boys, up to and including castration.  Remembering that strengthened me for the one-way trip to the vet - no way could I face that kind of harm being caused by a dog of mine.

These days, nippy collies are a lot more rare, most breeders of pet or working stock will not breed from a collie that shows any aggression towards a human and the traits have been, if not eradicated then at least massively reduced.

Having been there myself, I think it is a very personal decision so I would not presume to tell anyone else what they must or must not do.  But for myself, I certainly would not take any risks with a nippy collie near children; if I had to have the dog then it would be in a secure pen when there were children about.

Subsequent to the above story, having a different problem with a later rescue dog, I bought John Cree's 'Your Problem Dog' book, which was full of insight and great practical suggestions - and in this case, I am pleased to report we had complete success and the dog died peacefully of old age at home five years ago.

Whatever you decide, goosepimple, I wish you the very best of luck - and if a private conversation would be of any help, drop me a PM.

Best,
Sally x
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

feldar

  • Joined Apr 2011
  • lymington hampshire
Re: Border Collie snapping help please
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2012, 03:48:58 pm »
Hi Goosepimple, i have a nippy collie too. she is fine with me my hubby and my stepdaughter but nips my two stepsons and any strangers who come in. She shows no outward aggression at first, in fact will wag her tail but when they pet her she nips as they go to remove their hand. Sometimes she will just take a dislike to someone and she gets a glazed look in her eyes and i know she will bite.
She was misteated and we have learned to "manage her " by shutting her back when the guests are about she lives out with another dog and is from working stock.
She is very bonded to me and will jump through hoops for me just to please.
I think it is a case of management with dogs like these she is now 4 1/2 years old and i can't see her ever changing, we have a grandchild on the way so she will be shut back when baby visits but she has a good outdoor life and is treated well so i don't feel she is missing out.
I think some collies are just not family dogs and very much need their own space.
Good luck with what you decide to do

goosepimple

  • Joined May 2010
  • nr Lauder, Scottish Borders
Re: Border Collie snapping help please
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2012, 05:14:16 pm »
Thank you everyone, that's all great to hear - when you encounter this sort of thing you tend to think it's your fault and quiz yourself constantly on what you've done wrong, so it's good to hear all your stories. 
OH has just taken her to the vet this evening for her booster shots and mentioned it to him - he confirmed that BCs are quite often like this and that we should continue to tell her off and then ignore her completely so she gets the message and that we shouldn't make too much of it at present, she is still very young.  Otherwise he thought she was fantastic and would get better with age so long as we are firm, it's just her instinct.  That's possibly a moot point considering all your experiences. 
She is from local working stock and I think I'll go back to the shepherd (they have many dogs) and mention it to him to see if he can suggest anything.  She was to be working here but our daft rare breeds are potential olympic high jump gold medalists so her talents are not used as they should be.  Keep you all posted, it's obviously quite a widespread problem.  Now including an outside kennel in our ongoing building plans.   
Many thanks all on this constantly great website.
registered soay, castlemilk moorit  and north ronaldsay sheep, pygmy goats, steinbacher geese, muscovy ducks, various hens, lots of visiting mallards, a naughty border collie, a puss and a couple of guinea pigs

ROB AND NAOMI

  • Joined Jan 2012
Re: Border Collie snapping help please
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2012, 05:39:28 pm »
hi
  sorry to hear about your dog  we have been dog breaders for many years theres not alot you can do the dog has not learnt as a puppy that this hurts they uselly get this lesson from there brothers and sisters when pups you need to be very confident and make sure the dog understands the pack order in your house you have to be a bit cruel to be kind dont forget somepeople dont like and understand dogs and if the dog hurts a child you can find yourself in all kinds of bother
best of luck

colliewoman

  • Joined Jul 2011
  • Pilton
  • Caution! May spontaneously talk rabbits!
Re: Border Collie snapping help please
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2012, 07:23:41 pm »

I disagree, there is PLENTY you can do IF you ensure the safety of the kids whilst doing so.
Get a crate, teach her it is a wonderful safe place that nothing nasty ever happens in. let her know it belongs to her and she will be safe whilst there. kids are absolutely not under any circumstances allowed to interact with her whilst in there. she can take herself there when she feels things are getting to much to control, rather than attempt to do the controlling
Ensure the kids have a place to play where the dogs is absolutely not allowed to go. EVER.
Do not leave them together unsupervised.
Next, at least an hours walk, every day. not hanging around the yard, but controlled human dog interaction. a game of fetch or an on lead walk, whatever you choose. do not let the kids do this.
half an hour of training for tricks will also help, shake a paw, play dead, roll over anything. make her use her brain, this will tire her far more than any amount of exercise.
What do you feed? check it's not working dog food. she may be a working breed, but unless she is working the sheep on the hills she does not need the protein and carb levels in working dog food. she needs to be calm enough to think things through, and like a kid whacked out on sugar, isnt going to be able to do so if she's buzzing from the wrong food.
 as for not wanting to approach her when sleeping, simply don't! let sleeping dogs lie as they say! if you need her to be somewhere else, call her. if you use the crate as i suggest (you dont need to shut the door on it by the way) then this negates the whole issue as she knows she'll never be disturbed there.
get a copy of barbara syke's 'understanding the border collie'. the book is amazing, and a real help.
best of luck, i'm sure you'll do fine.


oh just a quick add on, i know the kids probably want to be best friends with her, but she may never want that and the young uns will have to accept it. if a collie has decided not to be a rough and tumble dog, there is nothing you can do about that. pilot my dog will play all day with kids as rough as they like. red dog would have a fit.... she goes and lies in her crate. unless they want to play fetch. she can do that with kids AAAALLLLLLLLLLL day ;D
We'll turn the dust to soil,
Turn the rust of hate back into passion.
It's not water into wine
But it's here, and it's happening.
Massive,
but passive.


Bring the peace back

bigchicken

  • Joined Nov 2008
  • Fife Scotland
Re: Border Collie snapping help please
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2012, 08:50:56 pm »
I have kept working terriers for many years. terriers can be a bit nippy sometimes. I thing the lack of socialising as a pup may have a lot to do with nippy dogs. Any pup I ever bred was well socialised and more or less bomb proof, My kids used to dress them up in dolls cloths etc. I would never tolerate a dog if it was any kind of danger to my kids, you can watch them all the time.. In fact I was nipped today by a customers terrier and she constantly had to take it away from me. very disconcerning and a wonderful way to be greeted into someones home .As someone who has been bitten on several occasions by (OH HE IS ONLY PLAYING) dogs,   I find this extremely antisocial, put it this way if you son punched anyone who enterred your house what would you think.
Shetland sheep, Castlemilk Moorits sheep, Hebridean sheep, Scots Grey Bantams, Scots Dumpy Bantams. Shetland Ducks.

ROB AND NAOMI

  • Joined Jan 2012
Re: Border Collie snapping help please
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2012, 09:26:14 pm »
hi
just an add on to post we sent before didn't mean to sound so down about the dog nipping we just found with all animals we have bread and vets we have worked with while breading dogs for the forces etc seem to think that animals like us learn there behaviour from there parents but just as strong from there siblings as we know if a bother or sister hit us back it hurt and we didn't do it again [well thats the plan lol] so the dog does not understand the pain she is giving out , one of the main points i was trying to make was people with out dogs can see things totally different to people with we bread staffs and had a lot of prudish from people

cuckoo

  • Joined Jan 2011
Re: Border Collie snapping help please
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2012, 09:42:32 pm »
I had a collie for 15 years - my first dog she was with our family from me being 14 - 29.  In hindsight she was probably a result of a puppy farm.  She had nervous aggression problems and would nip / bite.  We sought advice from a dog behaviorist and we implemented positive dog training techniques such as clicker training.  Previously we had been advised to "dominate" her which only exacerbated the situation.  She became a lot better once we had used the postive dog training but she was never trusted with children or vistors - it was a case of management.  If your dog does any aggressive tendancies it is important to deal with it as soon as you can and really would advise you see a reputable qualified dog trainer who can see her in your home.  By qulaified I dont mean lots of letters after their name more by being a member of a organisation such as association of pet dog trainers or association of pet behavioural counsellors as anyone can set up as a dog trainer and some may do more harm than good.

The book colliewoman recommends is good. 

Good luck - collies are great dogs - I still miss my Tam

feldar

  • Joined Apr 2011
  • lymington hampshire
Re: Border Collie snapping help please
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2012, 08:45:30 am »
I agree totally with Colliewoman on the feeding .When we first had our collies we were advised to use a working dog food. Both dogs were stir crazy with this food we just didn't work them enough to have a need for it, so we dropped back to a maintenance diet and they are a lot more manageable on this, not jumping out their skins!!

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Border Collie snapping help please
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2012, 09:20:45 am »
Yes, I agree about the feed too; I should have thought to mention that. 

Working collies can do so much on so little that a pet collie should really be fed nothing more than polystyrene and cardboard. 

Or, if you want to buy it with a label on it, plain terrier biscuits and Chappie Original!  (With apologies to Chappie, which is a fine dog food and which I use to bulk up what I feed my working collies as well as as the staple ingredient for any non-working collie types.) 

In my view, all the complete foods are far too high in protein for any but a very actively working dog - and I mean hours every day, not just running about having fun but actual work. 
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

jaykay

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Cumbria/N Yorks border
Re: Border Collie snapping help please
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2012, 10:31:45 am »
Get hold of Barbara Sykes book 'Understanding Border Collies'. She talks about the feeding issue too and is basically amazingly wise about them. I'm sure she will be able to suggest things that help - my copy is at home and I'm at work or I'd check. And before you make any serious decisions maybe actually contact Barbara Sykes and see if she can help.

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
  • Qui? Moi?
    • ABERDON GUNDOGS for work and show
    • Facebook
Re: Border Collie snapping help please
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2012, 10:56:47 am »
I agree on food as well - and that goes for ALL breeds.  I have a 2 year old Brittany who is wild!  He used to be much worse when he was on a high protein kibble.  I took him down to 20% and add plain biscuit to it which I believe is 11% and he is still a bit wild but much more manageable.
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

Old Shep

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • North Yorkshire
Re: Border Collie snapping help please
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2012, 11:16:53 am »
Hi Goosepimple - you have had some fantastic replies here - some very knowledgeable dog people, and I entirely agree with Colliewomans post (and some others).  I haven't seen this much common sense on dog forums  ::) ::)

This dog needs a safe place of its own, to spend calm time on its own and a sensible diet.  No need to add more because it has all been said very sensibly in above posts  ;) If things don't improve, Barbara Sykes is the one who really understands border collies and does behavioural consultations. (Mainline Border Collies)

Good luck and let us know how it goes?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 11:18:38 am by Shep »
Helen - (used to be just Shep).  Gordon Setters, Border Collies and chief lambing assistant to BigBennyShep.

 

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