[Womble]

I think there's also a useful distinction as to who you're growing / rearing the food for. If it's mainly for your own consumption, and perhaps selling a pig or two to other people in order to pay for the rearing of one for your own freezer, then that isn't exactly farming. It is smallholding though.

Truthfully though, as long as I'm enjoying what I'm doing, and I can afford to keep doing it, I honestly don't care what anybody calls me! 

[violet]

I was once told that the difference between a farmer and a smallholder can be seen in how they get in their sheep. 

A farmer will drive them with a dog and/or a quad bike. 

A smallholder calls them.

 

    

I give the local crofter farmers loads of laughs calling my sheep in. They have names too - all 22 of them & I can tell them apart & I know their life stories off by heart & am willing to tell anyone who stands still long enough    

[lachlanandmarcus]

Hmmm, well since I had 39 of them hurtling to my call today, I guess that's smallholding I do! Actually I only called Coco and Stickylegs (legs like sticks not gooey you understand :-)) and the rest follow them!

[Rosemary]

I don't think there's any real difference between a smallholder and a small farmer - a smallholder has a small agricultural holding with a CPH (holding) number - other than what we choose to apply ourselves. I think smallholder does have connotations of "The Good Life" whereas small farmer may give the impression of being more businesslike.

There have been threads on here before about the difference between a gardener and a smallholder - I think the concensus was "livestock".

But since there's no "one size fits all" description of a small farmer OR a smallholder or any legal definition (except crofts), does it matter? In the Agricultural census, a holding below 5ha is "small".

And I think "hobby farmer" is a compliment - shows you're doing it because you love it.

[little blue]

what about "micro-holder" ?!
we have no more land than a large, corner plot garden.

we have goats for milk (and a small billy for breeding - for milk!) kune pigs for breeding and meat, chickens for eggs & meat, ducks & quails for eggs, a collection of small furries for breeding & pets, cats (hunters and pets) and a big dog (guarding & loving!) and enough veg for us & the animals, as well as lawn & flowers.

    does that make me a "good lifer" or just a wannabe?

personally, I think its as much a state of mind ... and the ownership of a CPH number!

[bazzais]

I think I am both depending on who I speak to - its subjective really, we dont have any control over what others think and label us as. - but we are all probably in the same sector in some sense. (although the micro-holder must have real passion and dedication - well done! )

I am lucky enough to have enough money from another job not to make money from my farming activities - for now anyway! The capital investment has been massive just in the basics such as fences, shelter, equipment - investments that are far bigger and with far smaller returns than in other sectors.

That said I've always got 'business' on my mind.   I dont really like not making a profit, but its not something I dont want to turn around and turn into £££ eventually. You sometimes have to take the hit and think of a vision.  Maybe walking out on a plank? Maybe a visionary? I dont know yet!?

Is the difference between a small holder and a small farmer
- one puts money through the books and treats it as a business while the other sees it as extra money and has no books, its just a 'pastime', like the money made from a sunday car boot sale?  

Dunno - but I'd label myself as both.

Plenty of car boot sales in my books

Baz

[VSS]

Below is a quote from an article I wrote for the June issue of Home Farmer magazine

"There is no legal distinction between a farm and a smallholding – both are agricultural holdings – but generally a smallholding is considered to be somewhat larger than an allotment plot, but usually less than fifty acres. Anything bigger than this might be thought of as a farm. However, I would argue that smallholding is more about mindset, than purely an area based concept. By definition, a smallholding is an intensively managed small farm, but would four acres be a smallholding if it carried an intensive pig unit? On four acres, you might feasibly house 1000+ sows! Definitely a small area, but not a smallholding as we would understand it. However, neither would someone with an oversize backgarden, some fancy hens and a pet pig classify as a smallholder, in my opinion! At the opposite end of the scale would be Laverstoke Park, a 2500 acre holding run by ex-formula one world champion, Jody Schekter. He fully embraces the smallholding ethos, despite the acreage involved"

I think there's also a useful distinction as to who you're growing / rearing the food for. If it's mainly for your own consumption, and perhaps selling a pig or two to other people in order to pay for the rearing of one for your own freezer, then that isn't exactly farming. It is smallholding though.

It's called subsitence farming in some parts of the world.

[SallyintNorth]

I give the local crofter farmers loads of laughs calling my sheep in. They have names too - all 22 of them & I can tell them apart & I know their life stories off by heart & am willing to tell anyone who stands still long enough    

Quite right too!

Any beef or dairy farmer worth his or her salt can identify every single cow, heifer and calf and give you life story and breeding; the top sheep breeders likewise know the dam and sire of every good lamb on their farm, often back through many generations.  They don't always name them all though...    But they'll have a way of referring to them, often by where they were bought or from whom / which farm. 

When I came here to BH's farm, he had (amongst others) The Wigton Cow, the First One I Bought From Nicholas, the Garth House Charollais, the Hereford That Always Bit My Finger When Drinking Her Milk, etc.  It all seemed a bit of a mouthful to me, plus at first I couldn't remember all the stories as I hadn't been there, so those animals are now called Wiggy, Poppy, Charlie & Dolly - by both of us.     In fact, when BH is about to refer to one of the beasts, he'll ask me, "What do you call Winnie's heifer calf?" or similar...    He's even stopped being embarrassed with the vet, and uses their names openly.  Oh!  and gets the AI man to write their number and name on the AI sheets!

He is still a bit embarrassed that a few of the sheep have names... but he does use them, and even named the new tup himself! 

[hughesy]

I read somewhere that smallholders sell direct to the consumer, and farmers sell their produce wholesale. Many people do both though so what pigeon hole shall we put them in. Does it actually matter?

[SallyintNorth]

I read somewhere that smallholders sell direct to the consumer, and farmers sell their produce wholesale. Many people do both though so what pigeon hole shall we put them in. Does it actually matter?

We buy a lot of our meat, cheese and veg from local farmers directly, at farmers' markets or through a box scheme, etc.  We sell to the local butcher as well as to the big meat processors who supply the supermarkets.  As you say, hughesy, many do both!

The capital investment has been massive just in the basics such as fences, shelter, equipment - investments that are far bigger and with far smaller returns than in other sectors.

...

Is the difference between a small holder and a small farmer
- one puts money through the books and treats it as a business while the other sees it as extra money and has no books, its just a 'pastime', like the money made from a sunday car boot sale? 

Well a farmer does have to have books, yes.  But in terms of a farmer's attitude to the business and an accountant's view... check my tag line.  Very very few farmers would stay in business if they did all their sums the way the 'money men' would have them do.  But taking the long view (and 10 years is the blink of an eye to a farmer - one of the reasons they have such a poor opinion of all the environmental schemes - some of them last only for 5 years and none more than 10), a family farm sustains a home and way of life for generations. 

[Fowgill Farm]

A local farming magazine rang and asked if i would be interested in doing a feature on our farm, when i explained that we were "hobby farmers" she couldn't get off the phone fast enough and funny never heard from them again!!
 
Mandy 

[doganjo]

A local farming magazine rang and asked if i would be interested in doing a feature on our farm, when i explained that we were "hobby farmers" she couldn't get off the phone fast enough and funny never heard from them again!!
 
Mandy 

You should have said yes and let them see your smallholding - I'm sure they would have been impressed, and they might even have printed it.

[Heather]

the distinction may matter to those of you who are one or the other.  The rest of the population care not at all.  Don't you think that some people will always want to feel 'superior' to others, in whatever field of human life?

[violet]

When I came here to BH's farm, he had (amongst others) The Wigton Cow, the First One I Bought From Nicholas, the Garth House Charollais, the Hereford That Always Bit My Finger When Drinking Her Milk, etc.  It all seemed a bit of a mouthful to me, plus at first I couldn't remember all the stories as I hadn't been there, so those animals are now called Wiggy, Poppy, Charlie & Dolly - by both of us.     In fact, when BH is about to refer to one of the beasts, he'll ask me, "What do you call Winnie's heifer calf?" or similar...    He's even stopped being embarrassed with the vet, and uses their names openly.  Oh!  and gets the AI man to write their number and name on the AI sheets!

That is just so cool  How did you train him? My OH is terrible with the sheep names ( pigs & cattle are OK 'cos we've only got a couple of each).
When I mention Doris for example- he looks at me at says huh  so then I have to say 'the white cheviot x shetland with the black spot on it's left ear that always has small lambs...'. Exactly - a mouthful. 

[Womble]

It's called subsitence farming in some parts of the world.

Yes, and if you took away Tescos down the road, we would undoubtably have starved to death by now!

Heather has it right with "I live in Yorkshire, and keep a few chickens". What does it really matter what we're called!?

The only problem I've had so far was in the pub after the CSSA AGM. I was trying to explain to the chap at the urinal next to me that we were having a smallholders' meeting, but he just looked down, and then across at me, before saying "Oh, so I see" !!!