[honeyend]

I have stopped letting anyone have my grass. No matter what they say they will do, they haven't, even the really one really good one I had. I have come to the conclusion that if I have to look at them through my window or they are on my land, I want to be in control. If its too wet I can shift them, if they need hay or a block I can do it without having to ask.
  I feel really awful about this but when you lay ground rules about checks, water etc and they can not even do those its just not worth the aggravation.

[bazzais]

As you have your 3 Ouessants in the field too just say that your putting the buckets and top ups in for yours because they need it(?), then casually ask if he has any objection to his having access, you might get an answer of that they feel its not - or if its ok then ask if they could chip in as it will be available for their animals too?

[laurelrus]

Thanks bazzais
They did finally turn up at the weekend, had a friendly discussion with my OH and said that as the grass is now very low they'll be moving them again soon. We've learned a lesson here!

[landroverroy]

If grass is low I'd want their stock off now not soon. It may not be growing again for another couple of months and you'll find you have nothing for your own animals. Also, the lower down it gets eaten, the longer it will take to recover, so you may not get any appreciable regrowth till May.

[laurelrus]

Landroverroy - unfortunately I think you're right, the grass is really low and looks like it's going to take a while to recover. We're going to actively encourage them to come asap with frequent texts and calls. We're also not going to be so naive next time someone asks to use the field and just assume they know best.

Thanks for all the input

[twizzel]

Ring them every morning until they come pick them up! 

[harmony]

Landroverroy - unfortunately I think you're right, the grass is really low and looks like it's going to take a while to recover. We're going to actively encourage them to come asap with frequent texts and calls. We're also not going to be so naive next time someone asks to use the field and just assume they know best.

Thanks for all the input

If the ground isn't poached then it should recover fine as Spring arrives.


Your comment about assuming they knew best is rather unfair as we (those on here) haven't seen any evidence that the sheep were lacking care only that you were concerned but you said you are a novice.


Clearly you have more land than your three tiddlers are going to need so you do need a long term plan.

[laurelrus]

Harmony -
My comment 'they know best' wasn't unfair at all - we've just realised that just because someone has a flock of sheep they need to find land for doesn't make them expert or experienced owners, that was naive of us, and in this case that's how it's turned out. We wanted to be helpful to someone who needed land but we should have asked more questions and not assumed they were experts in sheep care.

We've been here for four years intentionally taking it slowly, learning as we go and as we've acquired our small number of animals we've done courses, read books, and met up with local people who have experience and are happy to advise etc. as animal welfare is our priority.

We do have a long-term plan and once we have these sheep moved on we can progress with it slowly.

[harmony]

[quote author=laurelrus link=topic=90350.msg678313#msg678313 date=1516787892

My question is - what should they be doing/providing for their sheep? They haven't provided a lick or any feed or hay and I want to check if that's right. We are very much hobbyists so treat our assorted livestock differently to smallholders/farmers I know, but if these sheep need anything then I want to make sure they have it. On the other hand, I don't want to be telling them to provide stuff if it's not necessary so would really appreciate input.

Thank you



It doesn't matter what label the owner gives themselves a sheep is sheep whoever owns it. The replies on here were varied about what extras people are giving their sheep and you have not provided any evidence that your graziers have treated their animals badly so that is why I found your comment unfair.

[landroverroy]

[quote author=laurelrus link=topic=90350.msg678313#msg678313 date=1516787892



It doesn't matter what label the owner gives themselves a sheep is sheep whoever owns it. The replies on here were varied about what extras people are giving their sheep and you have not provided any evidence that your graziers have treated their animals badly so that is why I found your comment unfair.

I would say that Laurelus has been more than fair in their approach. There are different degrees of neglect and prevention is better than cure.

It is difficult to actually neglect your sheep when they are on someone else's land with plenty of grass and the land owner is looking after them. But once the grass has been eaten right down so the animals  would need additional feed, would be the telling time. But that is not an ideal situation, and to me, Laurelus is looking ahead to possibly act before the potential to neglect becomes a reality.
Quite honestly someone who has free grazing should be considerably more accommodating. Anyone with any sense of responsibility towards their animals should at least be contactable by phone 24/7. It's the least they can do. I had free grazing for my sheep at lambing time a few years ago. I checked them every day, even though they shared grazing with the landowner's ponies, and I went over straight away if the landowner was worried about something. But "they did turn up this weekend" and "they'll be removing them soon" is quite honestly the actions of someone who is not taking any meaningful responsibility for their animals, and if that's not a precursor for neglect once the grass has gone, I don't know what is! 

[harmony]

I didn't say that Laurelrus was less than fair in their approach but in a specific comment.


I don't see that whether you pay for grazing or have it FOC that it should make any difference to the care your sheep receive.

[laurelrus]

Thanks Landroverroy - you've accurately summed up the situation. We were happy to provide free grazing because we didn't need it and they were stuck for a place to keep their animals.  We let them know when they've needed to come up asap for something like a limping sheep and up until the last four or five weeks they've been quick to respond so no concerns.

But then things changed, no response to calls or texts, bad weather and a large number of sheep for the amount of grazing and that's when I felt I needed to ask for advice from experienced sheep keepers.

I didn't provide evidence because the point of my query was to get advice on what they should (or shouldn't) be providing, not that I thought they were being mistreated because if I did I would have taken action straight away. Now they've told us they'll be moving the sheep somewhere with more grazing we'll make sure that's happening imminently in the interest of the sheep, although once again no contact since last weekend.

[landroverroy]

I don't see that whether you pay for grazing or have it FOC that it should make any difference to the care your sheep receive.

I agree. Sheep should be cared for. Full stop.


However -  the point I am making  (and maybe didn't explain) is that if you are paying for grazing then maybe it would not be totally unreasonable to expect the landowner to look at them and check that they're ok. 


But you surely wouldn't expect  free grazing (in winter - when grass is at a premium!), AND someone else to take responsibility for the animals?! Ultimately the responsibility for welfare of the animals rests with the owners, unless they have made arrangements otherwise.  As far as I'm aware the grazier made no arrangements for Laurelus to look after these sheep, they haven't even made themselves easily contactable to discuss their welfare. Doesn't bode well for what would happen if left there once the grass is eaten does it?

[harmony]

I don't see that whether you pay for grazing or have it FOC that it should make any difference to the care your sheep receive.

I agree. Sheep should be cared for. Full stop.


However -  the point I am making  (and maybe didn't explain) is that if you are paying for grazing then maybe it would not be totally unreasonable to expect the landowner to look at them and check that they're ok. 


But you surely wouldn't expect  free grazing (in winter - when grass is at a premium!), AND someone else to take responsibility for the animals?! Ultimately the responsibility for welfare of the animals rests with the owners, unless they have made arrangements otherwise.  As far as I'm aware the grazier made no arrangements for Laurelus to look after these sheep, they haven't even made themselves easily contactable to discuss their welfare. Doesn't bode well for what would happen if left there once the grass is eaten does it?

I wouldn't expect anyone whose land I was using, payment or not, to keep an eye on my animals. If they saw something amiss I would be grateful for the heads up. There is a lot of assumptions being made but if Laurelus isn't happy then she can ask them to leave and hope they do.

[Womble]

Folks, I feel a bit uncomfortable reading some of the replies above. In the absence of any other arrangement, the duty of care for those sheep remains with the owner, and Laurelrus should not be made to feel guilty, especially after having made the effort to seek advice on here.


Yes, if I had my sheep on somebody else's land, I'd expect and want them to call me if they saw something amiss, but at the end of the day, the responsibility remains mine and mine alone.


Laurelrus - we were in much the same situation a few years ago. We had just bought our own sheep, and I told our neighbour that he would now no longer be able to use our wee bit of land for grazing (I did give him 8 months notice!). Actually what happened was that come the autumn he begged us to allow 'a few tups for a couple of weeks', but which then turned into 30 of them for six weeks! (I later found out that he had no tup-proof fields, so had come to rely on having the use of ours) These all but demolished our winter grazing and left us having to buy in far more hay than we'd planned. What's more, his sheep gave ours foot rot, pink eye, and left us with a nematodirus problem that still persists to this day. Nice eh?


If I could have my time again, I'd certainly not have let our grazing. But you live and learn, I guess.