The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: laurelrus on January 24, 2018, 09:58:12 am
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We have had someone else's sheep on our field for about six months - 19 Zwartbles and 5 Jacobs (lambs when they came) and they've all been fine out with our three (pet) Ouessants and donkeys etc.
They took the 19 Zwartbles away a while ago to put with a ram but have recently brought them back as where they were was waterlogged but fortunately our field is okay and we're quite happy to have them.
My question is - what should they be doing/providing for their sheep? They haven't provided a lick or any feed or hay and I want to check if that's right. We are very much hobbyists so treat our assorted livestock differently to smallholders/farmers I know, but if these sheep need anything then I want to make sure they have it. On the other hand, I don't want to be telling them to provide stuff if it's not necessary so would really appreciate input.
Thank you
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What condition score are the sheep?
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Harmony - I don't know, they're not tame enough for me to handle. I'm used to my very tame pet sheep so this is a different kettle of fish, so to speak!
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If you are renting the field to someone else I would leave them to do their sheep their own way... around here lots of sheep don't have hay/haylage in their fields yet, but often see a lick bucket. Mine have both, but hay is not ad-lib as they would just waste it...
Have you got a proper contract drawn up?
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There are so many variables acerage/gestation stage/grass quality and quantity/condition score/age/lambing percentage.
the simple answer is ask the owner? personally some of my ewes have ad lib hay and bucket. some don't as they still have grass, and feeding them more would only cause lambing problems.
hope this helps
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I would go with sheeponthebrain's answer that you should talk to the owner. And I would take the line of " I am interested in learning more about sheep and just wondered if Zwartables were good doers as you don't seem to need to supplement them in the winter...etc..."
And actually if you haven't got concerns other than you think they need something because it is winter rather than they look like they need it then do as Anke says and leave alone.
Here there are breeding ewes (hill sheep) with nothing yet in the way of supplements.
People do take the view that feeding can cause lambing problems and interestingly a recent webinar suggested differently.
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How much grass do you have left? If they have enough grass and are in good condition it might be that their owner doesn't think they need anything. If you have little grass they should have hay or haylage, and depending on when their due to lamb they could have ewe nuts. Whether to provide a mineral block or feed block is down to personal preference.
I think rather than risk offending the person who has sheep on your land you should ask them if they need any minerals or additional feed. Id they say no and you think their wrong, make an excuse and ask him to remove the sheep.
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What contract do you have? .... this sounds a bit casual? Others have fallen foul of the I'll just dump my sheep with you when I feel like it ....
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Thanks very much for all the input.
We don’t have anything in writing, in hindsight not clever, and I really just want to make sure the sheep are being well cared for.
I think what I’ll do is ask them to come over at the weekend and as suggested explain that we’re keen to learn more about sheep husbandry and hopefully have a friendly conversation about it.
Appreciate the advice.
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How big is the field and how long the grass? The general rule is 5 sheep to the acre, but that assumes a lot of things including very good grass and a mild Winter. The sheep should be checked every day. If they are doing this then the arrangement is what's referred to hereabouts as "grass keep" or "tack". This generally lasts from 1st April to 30th October, leaving the land to recover over the Winter. If you are in charge of their general care then their welfare becomes your responsibility. Bear in mind that consideration should also be given to their health status, including intestinal worms status, and how it may affect your Ouessants.
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around here lots of sheep don't have hay/haylage in their fields yet, but often see a lick bucket.
There are a couple of fields on my way to work where the sheep don't seem to have either hay or a licky bucket. They're the same fields that have had dead sheep in them several times over the past couple of weeks too!
IME Zwartbles do need feeding in order to thrive, or at least they do on our grass. Ours are currently a bit thinner than I'd like for the time of year, so they have ad lib hay plus a mineral lick and a small feeding of nuts once a day in an attempt to keep them at a stable weight.
As for what you should do since they're not your sheep, that's really a matter of judgement, and I reckon you're in a better place to make that decision than anybody on TAS! :thumbsup:
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- We are at 1000 ft above sea level and our sheep don't have licks or hay, unless its a severe frost or lying snow - they have grass. You can't generalise, it depends on what natural forage is available.
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The conditions in Buckinghamshire (home of OP) are likely to be quite different from Central Scotland but as Old Shep says you can't generalise.
Last week I left Cumbria in freezing conditions, snow on the ground and miserable conditions for any animal let alone young ones. Four hours later in South Wales in was dry and 9 degrees and there was grass on the fields.
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The conditions in Buckinghamshire (home of OP) are likely to be quite different from Central Scotland but as Old Shep says you can't generalise.
Last week I left Cumbria in freezing conditions, snow on the ground and miserable conditions for any animal let alone young ones. Four hours later in South Wales in was dry and 9 degrees and there was grass on the fields.
No you definitely cant generalise ..... here in S Wales we have no grass ... (apart from the field I've kept for lambing) .... and it has been so wet that any grass we did have would hardly be worth eating (field was awash again yesterday.
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Talk to the owner. If they are ok they are ok. X sheep to the acre, x grass length, it is all meaningless if the sheep are suffering - and equally if they are not. They are just guesses, guides, indicators.
Mine have nothing but moss, reeds and the wind atm, some are ewe lambs, some are 8 yo brokers. A roadside look or internet opinion would say they do not have enough. They are all happy as you like and if anything over fat as they are not due until April.
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I have stopped letting anyone have my grass. No matter what they say they will do, they haven't, even the really one really good one I had. I have come to the conclusion that if I have to look at them through my window or they are on my land, I want to be in control. If its too wet I can shift them, if they need hay or a block I can do it without having to ask.
I feel really awful about this but when you lay ground rules about checks, water etc and they can not even do those its just not worth the aggravation.
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As you have your 3 Ouessants in the field too just say that your putting the buckets and top ups in for yours because they need it(?), then casually ask if he has any objection to his having access, you might get an answer of that they feel its not - or if its ok then ask if they could chip in as it will be available for their animals too?
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Thanks bazzais
They did finally turn up at the weekend, had a friendly discussion with my OH and said that as the grass is now very low they'll be moving them again soon. We've learned a lesson here!
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If grass is low I'd want their stock off now not soon. It may not be growing again for another couple of months and you'll find you have nothing for your own animals. Also, the lower down it gets eaten, the longer it will take to recover, so you may not get any appreciable regrowth till May.
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Landroverroy - unfortunately I think you're right, the grass is really low and looks like it's going to take a while to recover. We're going to actively encourage them to come asap with frequent texts and calls. We're also not going to be so naive next time someone asks to use the field and just assume they know best.
Thanks for all the input
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Ring them every morning until they come pick them up! :rant:
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Landroverroy - unfortunately I think you're right, the grass is really low and looks like it's going to take a while to recover. We're going to actively encourage them to come asap with frequent texts and calls. We're also not going to be so naive next time someone asks to use the field and just assume they know best.
Thanks for all the input
If the ground isn't poached then it should recover fine as Spring arrives.
Your comment about assuming they knew best is rather unfair as we (those on here) haven't seen any evidence that the sheep were lacking care only that you were concerned but you said you are a novice.
Clearly you have more land than your three tiddlers are going to need so you do need a long term plan.
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Harmony -
My comment 'they know best' wasn't unfair at all - we've just realised that just because someone has a flock of sheep they need to find land for doesn't make them expert or experienced owners, that was naive of us, and in this case that's how it's turned out. We wanted to be helpful to someone who needed land but we should have asked more questions and not assumed they were experts in sheep care.
We've been here for four years intentionally taking it slowly, learning as we go and as we've acquired our small number of animals we've done courses, read books, and met up with local people who have experience and are happy to advise etc. as animal welfare is our priority.
We do have a long-term plan and once we have these sheep moved on we can progress with it slowly.
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[quote author=laurelrus link=topic=90350.msg678313#msg678313 date=1516787892
My question is - what should they be doing/providing for their sheep? They haven't provided a lick or any feed or hay and I want to check if that's right. We are very much hobbyists so treat our assorted livestock differently to smallholders/farmers I know, but if these sheep need anything then I want to make sure they have it. On the other hand, I don't want to be telling them to provide stuff if it's not necessary so would really appreciate input.
Thank you
It doesn't matter what label the owner gives themselves a sheep is sheep whoever owns it. The replies on here were varied about what extras people are giving their sheep and you have not provided any evidence that your graziers have treated their animals badly so that is why I found your comment unfair.
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[quote author=laurelrus link=topic=90350.msg678313#msg678313 date=1516787892
It doesn't matter what label the owner gives themselves a sheep is sheep whoever owns it. The replies on here were varied about what extras people are giving their sheep and you have not provided any evidence that your graziers have treated their animals badly so that is why I found your comment unfair.
I would say that Laurelus has been more than fair in their approach. There are different degrees of neglect and prevention is better than cure. :sunshine:
It is difficult to actually neglect your sheep when they are on someone else's land with plenty of grass and the land owner is looking after them. But once the grass has been eaten right down so the animals would need additional feed, would be the telling time. But that is not an ideal situation, and to me, Laurelus is looking ahead to possibly act before the potential to neglect becomes a reality.
Quite honestly someone who has free grazing should be considerably more accommodating. Anyone with any sense of responsibility towards their animals should at least be contactable by phone 24/7. It's the least they can do. I had free grazing for my sheep at lambing time a few years ago. I checked them every day, even though they shared grazing with the landowner's ponies, and I went over straight away if the landowner was worried about something. But "they did turn up this weekend" and "they'll be removing them soon" is quite honestly the actions of someone who is not taking any meaningful responsibility for their animals, and if that's not a precursor for neglect once the grass has gone, I don't know what is!
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I didn't say that Laurelrus was less than fair in their approach but in a specific comment.
I don't see that whether you pay for grazing or have it FOC that it should make any difference to the care your sheep receive.
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Thanks Landroverroy - you've accurately summed up the situation. We were happy to provide free grazing because we didn't need it and they were stuck for a place to keep their animals. We let them know when they've needed to come up asap for something like a limping sheep and up until the last four or five weeks they've been quick to respond so no concerns.
But then things changed, no response to calls or texts, bad weather and a large number of sheep for the amount of grazing and that's when I felt I needed to ask for advice from experienced sheep keepers.
I didn't provide evidence because the point of my query was to get advice on what they should (or shouldn't) be providing, not that I thought they were being mistreated because if I did I would have taken action straight away. Now they've told us they'll be moving the sheep somewhere with more grazing we'll make sure that's happening imminently in the interest of the sheep, although once again no contact since last weekend.
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I don't see that whether you pay for grazing or have it FOC that it should make any difference to the care your sheep receive.
I agree. :thumbsup: Sheep should be cared for. Full stop.
However - the point I am making (and maybe didn't explain) is that if you are paying for grazing then maybe it would not be totally unreasonable to expect the landowner to look at them and check that they're ok.
But you surely wouldn't expect free grazing (in winter - when grass is at a premium!), AND someone else to take responsibility for the animals?! Ultimately the responsibility for welfare of the animals rests with the owners, unless they have made arrangements otherwise. As far as I'm aware the grazier made no arrangements for Laurelus to look after these sheep, they haven't even made themselves easily contactable to discuss their welfare. Doesn't bode well for what would happen if left there once the grass is eaten does it?
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I don't see that whether you pay for grazing or have it FOC that it should make any difference to the care your sheep receive.
I agree. :thumbsup: Sheep should be cared for. Full stop.
However - the point I am making (and maybe didn't explain) is that if you are paying for grazing then maybe it would not be totally unreasonable to expect the landowner to look at them and check that they're ok.
But you surely wouldn't expect free grazing (in winter - when grass is at a premium!), AND someone else to take responsibility for the animals?! Ultimately the responsibility for welfare of the animals rests with the owners, unless they have made arrangements otherwise. As far as I'm aware the grazier made no arrangements for Laurelus to look after these sheep, they haven't even made themselves easily contactable to discuss their welfare. Doesn't bode well for what would happen if left there once the grass is eaten does it?
I wouldn't expect anyone whose land I was using, payment or not, to keep an eye on my animals. If they saw something amiss I would be grateful for the heads up. There is a lot of assumptions being made but if Laurelus isn't happy then she can ask them to leave and hope they do.
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Folks, I feel a bit uncomfortable reading some of the replies above. In the absence of any other arrangement, the duty of care for those sheep remains with the owner, and Laurelrus should not be made to feel guilty, especially after having made the effort to seek advice on here.
Yes, if I had my sheep on somebody else's land, I'd expect and want them to call me if they saw something amiss, but at the end of the day, the responsibility remains mine and mine alone.
Laurelrus - we were in much the same situation a few years ago. We had just bought our own sheep, and I told our neighbour that he would now no longer be able to use our wee bit of land for grazing (I did give him 8 months notice!). Actually what happened was that come the autumn he begged us to allow 'a few tups for a couple of weeks', but which then turned into 30 of them for six weeks! (I later found out that he had no tup-proof fields, so had come to rely on having the use of ours) These all but demolished our winter grazing and left us having to buy in far more hay than we'd planned. What's more, his sheep gave ours foot rot, pink eye, and left us with a nematodirus problem that still persists to this day. Nice eh?
If I could have my time again, I'd certainly not have let our grazing. But you live and learn, I guess.
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I totally agree about the duty of care remaining with the owner.
I don't think anyone is trying to make laurelrus feel guilty and guilty about what? She asked a question she wasn't able to answer herself and the replies were quite varied. Wouldn't it have been easy to have been able to say " they need feed" or "they don't" but it was impossible to know the answer because we didn't know the condition score of the sheep, how much grass or the quality of it. Hence, suggestions of talking to the owner. Further along the post, after a conversation had taken place between the two parties, we were told the grazier had already recognised a need to move the sheep. The OP also said they didn't feel the sheep were being mistreated.
The conversation then moved to views and assumption about the grazier. And I said I felt laurelrus had made an unfair comment. Others disagreed. And that is individuals opinions.
This is an open forum and as such is full of different views and of course, who knows whether the grazier could well be a forum member too?
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Just to say the sheep are going to be moving tomorrow, which is great all round.
Thanks for all the input. Everything that happens is part of the learning curve for us so next time we're asked about having someone's sheep we'll know how to do things in a better way if we do decide to say yes, which is unlikely!
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Result then :thumbsup: