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Author Topic: Is it right for vets to speak out on animal welfare issues?  (Read 7691 times)

landroverroy

  • Joined Oct 2010
Re: Is it right for vets to speak out on animal welfare issues?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2018, 08:54:35 pm »
Is it indifference, ignorance or arrogance that underlies animal cruelty, or a combination of those?  I've seen horses sweltering under a NZ rug on a warm day, sheep with CODD lesions, chickens dying of anaemia due to lice infestation and a good many other things, all with non-farming owners who had no idea their animals were suffering, let alone why.


Probably a combination. But there is also sometimes a complete lack of empathy and awareness of animals as sensitive and feeling beings as we ourselves are.
I am on this forum where, a couple of weeks ago, when there was considerable snow in places, this new sheep owner asked if her "babies" would be alright without food for a couple of days. They are due to lamb in March. She said she'd noticed they'd eaten all their hay the previous night but couldn't get to them to give them some more because of the snow. A couple of people replied that they'd be fine as that frequently happened to hill sheep and they survived alright.


I couldn't believe that response! These weren't t inaccessible hill sheep - they were just down the road! :rant:


I replied that of course they'd be ok. As would she if she was without food for a couple of days. :innocent:  But it was by no means ideal. I then pointed out that if she could get to them to see they had no food then she could get to them and take them some. Even if it took all day carting armfuls at a time.


I could have said a lot more, but didn't want to be perceived as some sort of troll!
But that to me is typical of someone who had absolutely no concept of putting herself in the place of the sheep and imagining how she would have felt in freezing temperatures with no food simply because someone couldn't be bothered.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 08:57:47 pm by landroverroy »
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Backinwellies

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Re: Is it right for vets to speak out on animal welfare issues?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2018, 08:06:07 am »
Conversation I had yesterday with OH ...... 'i just can't understand why beginner smallholders get sheep before getting any information on rules, regs, welfare and care needs.  (I have been asked to visit a worried smallholder whose sheep haven't been shorn this year and I gather are now housed and suffering).  ..... I wouldn't dream of getting any animal I know nothing about without some prior preparation, training and reading!    Yes Vets should inform on welfare issues ..... Ours sometimes also runs discussion groups on particular topics.
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harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Is it right for vets to speak out on animal welfare issues?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2018, 09:49:40 am »
As a member of the this Forum surely we are all entitled to share our experiences, frustrations, disasters and successes whatever our occupation.  The OP is clearly a vet but most of us do not share our profession. Our common theme is animals and self sufficiency. The beauty of a Forum, is it not, a combination of experience and knowledge and how could administrators tell us we are not allowed to comment on a particular situation because of our profession.


I think the first thread was not intended to put anyone into a box which labelled smallholders inexperienced compared to farmers and it was a shame that people took that personally and detracted from the very good point the OP was making.




Foobar

  • Joined Mar 2012
  • South Wales
Re: Is it right for vets to speak out on animal welfare issues?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2018, 10:21:40 am »
Following on from "feeding sheep" thread, this now seems to be a contentious issue.
Discuss.

No, it's not, it's just the wording of that original post was a little inappropriate, as already discussed.  As for the subject of this (pointless?) thread, the answer is yes, obviously.

If anyone sees a welfare issue then they must speak out, first to the person responsible, and if no progress is made then to Animal Health, APHA, Trading Standards (or whomever they are called now).  There are laws that have to be obeyed, and there are people there to enforce them.

If you are a vet who is regularly attending a holding/farm where the keeper is repeatedly failing the animals in their care, even after you have given guidance/advice, then you should report them to someone who can do something about it.  Rant on here all you like if you want but if you don't report them you are also at fault.  Too many people just turn a blind eye.

The assumption that "farmers" are all professionals who are fully aware of all the regulations and best welfare practices, and "smallholders" are not, is a fallacy.  There are failings in both sectors.

The biggest problem is, livestock can be purchased and holding numbers/flock numbers can be obtained without any checking that the person applying for them / purchasing them are suitably qualified / informed.  I assumed when I applied for my flock numbers that I would get sent out a pack or something listing all the rules that I have to adhere to .. but no, nothing.  Even to be made aware that there are rules and pointed to where they can be found would have been something.  In this day and age that would be an easy thing to do, with updates sent out at regular intervals to keep awareness up.

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Is it right for vets to speak out on animal welfare issues?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2018, 10:54:33 am »
Following on from "feeding sheep" thread, this now seems to be a contentious issue.
Discuss.

No, it's not, it's just the wording of that original post was a little inappropriate, as already discussed.  As for the subject of this (pointless?) thread, the answer is yes, obviously.

If anyone sees a welfare issue then they must speak out, first to the person responsible, and if no progress is made then to Animal Health, APHA, Trading Standards (or whomever they are called now).  There are laws that have to be obeyed, and there are people there to enforce them.

If you are a vet who is regularly attending a holding/farm where the keeper is repeatedly failing the animals in their care, even after you have given guidance/advice, then you should report them to someone who can do something about it.  Rant on here all you like if you want but if you don't report them you are also at fault.  Too many people just turn a blind eye.

The assumption that "farmers" are all professionals who are fully aware of all the regulations and best welfare practices, and "smallholders" are not, is a fallacy.  There are failings in both sectors.

The biggest problem is, livestock can be purchased and holding numbers/flock numbers can be obtained without any checking that the person applying for them / purchasing them are suitably qualified / informed.  I assumed when I applied for my flock numbers that I would get sent out a pack or something listing all the rules that I have to adhere to .. but no, nothing.  Even to be made aware that there are rules and pointed to where they can be found would have been something.  In this day and age that would be an easy thing to do, with updates sent out at regular intervals to keep awareness up.


I saw nothing inappropriate in the first post. In fact, I think the OP said she was probably was telling us something we all knew. I didn't see it as a rant at all. Merely someone trying to highlight an issue.


But...actually we don't all know everything. That is why people post on here asking questions and asking for help and refer to posts for information. So, if one person went out and condition scored their sheep after that post and then thought "actually my sheep aren't scoring well" and did something about it, it was a useful post.


People may not have liked how the OP compared different groups of people but that wasn't the important bit of the post.


Nor do I think the original post said that they had returned to the same farm three times for the same problem but rather to three different smallholding with the same issue, which I think was the prompt to write the original post.


I see the point about people educating themselves and there is lots of ways to do that. Courses, helping out, books, videos, internet. Rules and regs are easily found. However, at the end of the day not only are there people who shouldn't be allowed to keep animals but a wide spectrum in between that and being an "really, excellent" person to keep animals. You can set a minimum of skills you expect someone to have but at the end of the day there are some people who absolutely love their animals but have no animal sense. Then there are those with lots of sense and care about their animals but are not in the least sentimental.




Me

  • Joined Feb 2014
  • Wild West
Re: Is it right for vets to speak out on animal welfare issues?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2018, 11:45:22 am »
The post is as much about perception of Vets as animal welfare.

Vets are viewed differently by everybody, the perception of what a Vet is and does vs the reality of what a Vet is and does are usually far apart. Most animal keepers secretly view themselves as experts and many see Vets as authority figures sent to the planet to validate their own views. Where Vets agree with a persons view points they are crowned a "good Vet" and if they dare express a contrasting opinion offense is caused and often, the client makes it their lifes work to ruin the reputation of said Vet, usually taking to social media in the first instance to gather an enraged possy. No doubt there are 100s of bad Vet threads on here if you look. 

It doesn't really matter that Farmvet highlighted smallholders in the post, it was smallholders that were involved and a smallholders forum is a perfect place to reach others so he/she/non-binary human/it/they have attempted to do the sheep of Britain a service by taking some of their own time to post. Thank you Farmvet :sheep:     





kanisha

  • Joined Dec 2007
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Re: Is it right for vets to speak out on animal welfare issues?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2018, 12:16:20 pm »
The right to express an opinion is one thing,  its value is measured  by each of us according to our own values,  understanding and experience. We are all learning, vets included...
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Marches Farmer

  • Joined Dec 2012
  • Herefordshire
Re: Is it right for vets to speak out on animal welfare issues?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2018, 01:10:33 pm »
Following on from "feeding sheep" thread, this now seems to be a contentious issue.
Discuss.
The biggest problem is, livestock can be purchased and holding numbers/flock numbers can be obtained without any checking that the person applying for them / purchasing them are suitably qualified / informed.
To extend the subject .... people have children without any qualifications or knowledge.  The exhaustive process for adopting a child would see virtually all child cruelty cases disappear if anyone considering becoming pregnant had to go through the same thing first.

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Is it right for vets to speak out on animal welfare issues?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2018, 01:23:11 pm »
Following on from "feeding sheep" thread, this now seems to be a contentious issue.
Discuss.
The biggest problem is, livestock can be purchased and holding numbers/flock numbers can be obtained without any checking that the person applying for them / purchasing them are suitably qualified / informed.
To extend the subject .... people have children without any qualifications or knowledge.  The exhaustive process for adopting a child would see virtually all child cruelty cases disappear if anyone considering becoming pregnant had to go through the same thing first.


If only it was that simple. Having a child involves two people, both of whom should be suitable and then other factors come into play, which impact on lives and don't always have the best outcome.


We all learn to drive and pass the same qualification to drive but we all make different drivers.

honeyend

  • Joined Oct 2011
Re: Is it right for vets to speak out on animal welfare issues?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2018, 07:48:27 pm »
I have kept horses for over forty years, and when I first started there was one book about horse management in the library which I read over and over again, in my attempt to learn the right way to keep a horse.
  The basics are the same, but most of the people who wrote those people where ex army, had family money and staff where I was working class, with a field and little but aspirations.
  I get so cross because information about animal management is so freely available on the internet, you not need to have money to find it. The novice are ridiculed for being, well novice and yes they really should find this things out before they get the animal, but everyone else makes it looks so easy. The selfie generation hardly ever post their mistakes.
  There is a common mistake that the vet is expensive, in my opinion when people with pay £30 to have their nails done every 2ish weeks, which takes 45mins, £35 for a vet to appear is a bargain, even if they say there is nothing wrong.
  Now I am going to have a bit of a dig at vets. They have done all that training and are very clever, its harder to become a vet than a doctor, but they are not always the best communicators or the most practical of people. A bit like doctors they come in dispense their wisdom, and leave you scratching your head thinking how on earth do they expect me to do that. Often they need an interpreter. to explain things.
  I think like Denplan they should encourage people to pay a yearly fee that entitled you to free 'flock' visits and perhaps discount on treatments, a practice nurse could do the basics, and nip some mistakes/problems  in the bud, with a vet follow up for prescribing.
  Most of us who have animals and have few problems practice prevention without even knowing it, that knowledge makes things look easy.

sabrina

  • Joined Nov 2008
Re: Is it right for vets to speak out on animal welfare issues?
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2018, 08:52:32 pm »
Yes, far too many people trying to have a go at the Good Life without any experience whats so ever on looking after animals. I see cattle, sheep and horses in fields full of ragwort in the summer. In the same fields in the winter with no hay and if you try to give helpful advice you get told ,we have such and such number of books on what to do. Sad to say i have never met any animal that has read these books and after 50 years working with animals I am still learning I once suggested a lambing course to be told the sheep can lamb themselves and if they die they die !!!!!

Dans

  • Joined Jun 2012
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Re: Is it right for vets to speak out on animal welfare issues?
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2018, 09:23:44 pm »
Yes, far too many people trying to have a go at the Good Life without any experience whats so ever on looking after animals.

To be fair I don't think starting without experience is the problem. I think it is about where you go from there. I grew up in the city with cats, dogs (as a young child), helping out Saturdays at a stables in my teens and a very brief stint with budgies and rabbits. I hadn't even touched a sheep until I was in my late 20s. We started the smallholding with my husband having no idea with any livestock and me having had some very minimal sheep handling. We started with chickens and geese and then a few months later added sheep in.

For all intents and purposes I had no experience, but I had spent the previous several years reading everything I could on here whilst doing my other studies. As we got the different animals I read what I could about them (the first geese and chickens were very suddenly rescued from a neighbour who had moved and left them for the foxes). I've always been keen to learn and open to advice. Someone mentions something about my animals and I'm immediately checking and seeing. I've not yet been told things need improving by anyone (which I guess is a good thing) but I have been told where I can cut corners (many of which after researching we have decided not to do).

I just wanted to give an alternative on people with no experience having a go at the good life. I really do think it isn't so much about experience as how much you are willing to learn and how open you are to hearing things from others.

Dans
9 sheep, 24 chickens, 3 cats, a toddler and a baby on the way

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Marches Farmer

  • Joined Dec 2012
  • Herefordshire
Re: Is it right for vets to speak out on animal welfare issues?
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2018, 09:19:13 am »
Following on from "feeding sheep" thread, this now seems to be a contentious issue.
Discuss.
The biggest problem is, livestock can be purchased and holding numbers/flock numbers can be obtained without any checking that the person applying for them / purchasing them are suitably qualified / informed.
To extend the subject .... people have children without any qualifications or knowledge.  The exhaustive process for adopting a child would see virtually all child cruelty cases disappear if anyone considering becoming pregnant had to go through the same thing first.
If only it was that simple. Having a child involves two people, both of whom should be suitable and then other factors come into play, which impact on lives and don't always have the best outcome.
6 exhaustive sessions on personality, family history and family support network, inspection of home and child's bedroom, medical, household accounts (with sworn affa davit), interviews with parents and six lots of monthly visits after adoption takes place ....  Not that much room for error.

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Is it right for vets to speak out on animal welfare issues?
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2018, 12:06:35 pm »
Following on from "feeding sheep" thread, this now seems to be a contentious issue.
Discuss.
The biggest problem is, livestock can be purchased and holding numbers/flock numbers can be obtained without any checking that the person applying for them / purchasing them are suitably qualified / informed.
To extend the subject .... people have children without any qualifications or knowledge.  The exhaustive process for adopting a child would see virtually all child cruelty cases disappear if anyone considering becoming pregnant had to go through the same thing first.
If only it was that simple. Having a child involves two people, both of whom should be suitable and then other factors come into play, which impact on lives and don't always have the best outcome.
6 exhaustive sessions on personality, family history and family support network, inspection of home and child's bedroom, medical, household accounts (with sworn affa davit), interviews with parents and six lots of monthly visits after adoption takes place ....  Not that much room for error.


And no mistakes happen? Adoption is the part of our care system and there are plenty of horror stories there.


What sort of world would we live in if we had to go though this sort of process before we had children. Yes, it might reduce the number of children ending up in care, create new jobs but I wonder how many decent families wouldn't actually be able to tick all the boxes because they failed a medical, didn't earn enough, didn't quite fit the bill?


Then what about step parents - would the process start all over again?

cloddopper

  • Joined Jun 2013
  • South Wales .Carmarthenshire. SA18
Re: Is it right for vets to speak out on animal welfare issues?
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2018, 10:56:51 am »
Remember that most people who become vets after an intense medical  5 year study that is comparable to a humans surgeon/ medical persons training . They do it because of their desire to work with help animals your feelings don't often come into it  . They also have to do regular CPC  updates .

You can become a smallholder/ animal keeper  without knowing which end of the pig you have to put the apples in .
If you decide to take the hump about what the vet says , you're likely to miss out on why it's been said .

 I've seen small holders give human grade medicines & salves etc. to animals & couldn't take on board as to why it's such a no no or why the vet went loopy .
Strong belief , triggers the mind to find the way ... Dyslexia just makes it that bit more amusing & interesting

 

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