The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: farmvet on January 12, 2018, 09:08:13 pm
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Following on from "feeding sheep" thread, this now seems to be a contentious issue.
Discuss.
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Yes.
Whether it might be more effective if the vet(s) in question expressed their opinions as just that - opinions - is perhaps a moot point ;). But I think any of us can and hopefully do bring any such issues to the attention of the forum, don’t we?
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100% yes. And across ALL animals - I used to be a VN in a busy mixed practice hospital and its an issue across every single animal - some of the smalls and exotics are abused very badly but with no malice intended, and killing with kindness is just as common.
I am honestly starting to wonder if there should be some form of license to own any animal where you have to prove a basic level of husbandry and knowledge - I'm on a chicken forum atm and its horrific how many get chickens (or worse, hatch em) and have no idea what so ever about ANYTHING and expect to wing it (pun unintended)
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yes please. An opinion is just an opinion. An informed opinion is a different beast to an uninformed opinion. So a bit of background or explanation is needed so the reader can tell one from the other. :innocent:
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Yes.
Another VN here - qualified in the early 90's, and a horse owner since my teens. I have had horses and dogs all my life, and have added chickens in the last 7 years. Along with books and internet, I have kept a happy flock of no more than 10 at a time, and my oldest girl is 9. I've had fox issues, and learned about mites, and how chickens will think little polystyrene beads are snail eggs and eat them, and that birds of prey are as likely to take them as a fox is. I moved into sheep last year, and have 4 lovely Wiltshires who met a nice Wiltshire chap this winter. I am hoping for the patter of little feet later in spring. I also gained 4 Zwartbles ladies, already pregnant, and 8 lambs soon joined the household. The 4 ladies are now retired, and the lambs growing nicely, and I gained a huge amount of help and information from this forum ( and others, and books, and the vet ) when we had a mastitis issue. I also learned that being flattened by several large sheep while trying to put feed in their trough, doesn't just happen to me !
I am lucky that I have a great local vet surgery that offer phone advice, and also run regular small-holder meetings to discuss issues, and do workshops such as sheep footcare, basic lambing tips, and talks on worming and vaccination. They do discounts on ""Lambing boxes"" to let people stock up on gloves, gel, antibiotics, stomach tubes, iodine etc - and also give advice on using them. I would feel my vets would be not doing the best they could, if they saw something I was doing/not doing that wasn't good for welfare, and they didn't mention it. In fact they are already telling people they know to have chickens, about the current issue with bird flu in the south west of the UK, and the potential connotations.
Cruelty by omission or lack of understanding is still cruel to the animal, even if there is no intent to be cruel. I've seen enough flabby pets brought in with arthritis, and breathing issues, to know that over-feeding can be as bad as underfeeding, and having now owned sheep - how hard it is to get an idea of weight/condition by sight alone. And how quickly a week of rain and cold temperatures, coupled with diarrhoea and not recognising that the grass ( still looking green and plentiful ) doesn't actually have much nutritional benefit in winter, can drop a sheep from a pudgy 3 to a barely 2, in a matter of days.
Whoever it is - owner, vet, worried passer by, concerned neighbour - speak out and try to improve the situation.
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Yes, although I would say something should be said to the owner before it is used as an example elsewhere. I don't mean permission to share but rather tell the owners where they are going wrong.
I visited a few farms during my studies and the difference in welfare was stark in some of them. I was surprised that the vet I was with knew the farmers for a long time, seemed used to their ways but powerless to do anything. They reminded the owners about 3 times before we left one visit that an older ewe with a prolapse swinging between her legs needed to be shot that day and shouldn't be in flock when they come back next week. The vet did offer put the ewe down there and then but the owner insisted he'd do it later. At another point, when I was searching for snails in their fields I came across multiple corpses of various ages. Farms like that can give farming a bad name and little seems to be done.
I saw some wonderful commercial farms with well cared for animals, but that one will always stay with me.
I think vets should share stories anonymously to other animal keepers to show how to not go wrong, but I also think there should be a way for them to report such animal welfare issues (after they have tried to get through to the owner), if something like that already exists then there should be more encouragement for vets to use it.
Dans
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Definitely YES.
As long as the people/places concerned are not identified the bringing such problems into awareness is useful to all.
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Yes no need to qualify further, would expect a professional approach and an objective opinion, from another VN
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A different angle: I really only see my own livestock, plus maybe a few other animals over the fence as I drive past. Also, although I could now be considered competent with the basics, I am still only at the stage of 'conscious incompetence' with anything that is out of the ordinary:
(http://www.crossfitbloomfield.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/consciousunconsciouscompetence2.jpg)
Hearing about issues from a vet is incredibly valuable because they have both the training and wide ranging experience to be classed as either consciously competent (I know, and I also know that I know), or unconsciously competent (I know, but it's now so natural to me that I forget how hard it was to get here!).
We had one vet come out here who had been born on a farm, and really couldn't grasp how I could possibly take four attempts to tip a sheep, then administered treatment without really explaining what he was doing or why. The practice manager came out the next week though, and couldn't have been more helpful. He didn't patronise, but instead took the time to explain his diagnosis and the treatment options, starting from the level I was at. They were both good vets, and both treated my animals effectively. Guess whose invoice I paid more willingly though?
So, here's a warning to the vets, or anybody else who's highly experienced:
Take a minute to remember how you got to where you are now. Remember that actually it involved many years of hard work and indeed mistakes along the way. Now remember that the rest of us really need the benefit of your experience, but also be kind - you're likely to provoke some very uncomfortable feelings in us when you point out our failings.
And here's some advice to the rest of us (I include myself in this):
Accept that there are some things you know, and some things you know you don't know. There will also be some things you don't know that you don't know, and those are the things that pose a danger to your livestock, no matter how deeply you care about them. We are lucky to have a number of highly experienced people on this forum who give of their expertise willingly and for free. If some of the advice shared makes you go 'ouch', weigh it carefully, and then if it's correct, swallow hard and take it on board as a necessary step in your own development. Don't take anything personally though, since it won't have been intended that way, and by taking offence, you will lose the benefit of the lesson.
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YES
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That's exactly it Womble :trophy:
There is also knowing you know but in fact being wrong, but you don't know that.
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No. Vet school is a five year factory designed to remove the student from their common sense which is then distributed to those who did not attend.
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There is also knowing you know but in fact being wrong, but you don't know that.
That's right too, Fleecewife. The step that's missing from the diagram is that we often lapse back into unconscious incompetence after a while. The classic example is bad or inattentive driving by people who've been doing it for years.
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Is it indifference, ignorance or arrogance that underlies animal cruelty, or a combination of those? I've seen horses sweltering under a NZ rug on a warm day, sheep with CODD lesions, chickens dying of anaemia due to lice infestation and a good many other things, all with non-farming owners who had no idea their animals were suffering, let alone why.
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Is it indifference, ignorance or arrogance that underlies animal cruelty, or a combination of those? I've seen horses sweltering under a NZ rug on a warm day, sheep with CODD lesions, chickens dying of anaemia due to lice infestation and a good many other things, all with non-farming owners who had no idea their animals were suffering, let alone why.
Probably all of the above.
Many people keep horses on DIY livery, and visit them early morning, and then evening. Easy to put a rug on at 0600 and feel it is fine for the current temp, and forget it gets warmer in the daytime. Also easy put a rug on to stop the horse getting muddy. Both are (IMHO) not acceptable. but I have the luxury of having the horses at home, and can change clothing as and when needed. As for bugs and mites - for all stock, dogs, horses, hens, sheep etc - having a regular and thorough hands on approach makes it more likely to spot stuff, as does having a basic read of the issues likely to happen. Hens and mites - sheep and internal worms, horses and weight issues etc . I don't worry about sunburn on my dog, and I don't worry about mastitis on at least 2 of my sheep - but you need to have an idea of what may cause an issue, and learn to look for it.
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Is it indifference, ignorance or arrogance that underlies animal cruelty, or a combination of those? I've seen horses sweltering under a NZ rug on a warm day, sheep with CODD lesions, chickens dying of anaemia due to lice infestation and a good many other things, all with non-farming owners who had no idea their animals were suffering, let alone why.
Probably a combination. But there is also sometimes a complete lack of empathy and awareness of animals as sensitive and feeling beings as we ourselves are.
I am on this forum where, a couple of weeks ago, when there was considerable snow in places, this new sheep owner asked if her "babies" would be alright without food for a couple of days. They are due to lamb in March. She said she'd noticed they'd eaten all their hay the previous night but couldn't get to them to give them some more because of the snow. A couple of people replied that they'd be fine as that frequently happened to hill sheep and they survived alright.
I couldn't believe that response! These weren't t inaccessible hill sheep - they were just down the road! :rant:
I replied that of course they'd be ok. As would she if she was without food for a couple of days. :innocent: But it was by no means ideal. I then pointed out that if she could get to them to see they had no food then she could get to them and take them some. Even if it took all day carting armfuls at a time.
I could have said a lot more, but didn't want to be perceived as some sort of troll!
But that to me is typical of someone who had absolutely no concept of putting herself in the place of the sheep and imagining how she would have felt in freezing temperatures with no food simply because someone couldn't be bothered.
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Conversation I had yesterday with OH ...... 'i just can't understand why beginner smallholders get sheep before getting any information on rules, regs, welfare and care needs. (I have been asked to visit a worried smallholder whose sheep haven't been shorn this year and I gather are now housed and suffering). ..... I wouldn't dream of getting any animal I know nothing about without some prior preparation, training and reading! Yes Vets should inform on welfare issues ..... Ours sometimes also runs discussion groups on particular topics.
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As a member of the this Forum surely we are all entitled to share our experiences, frustrations, disasters and successes whatever our occupation. The OP is clearly a vet but most of us do not share our profession. Our common theme is animals and self sufficiency. The beauty of a Forum, is it not, a combination of experience and knowledge and how could administrators tell us we are not allowed to comment on a particular situation because of our profession.
I think the first thread was not intended to put anyone into a box which labelled smallholders inexperienced compared to farmers and it was a shame that people took that personally and detracted from the very good point the OP was making.
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Following on from "feeding sheep" thread, this now seems to be a contentious issue.
Discuss.
No, it's not, it's just the wording of that original post was a little inappropriate, as already discussed. As for the subject of this (pointless?) thread, the answer is yes, obviously.
If anyone sees a welfare issue then they must speak out, first to the person responsible, and if no progress is made then to Animal Health, APHA, Trading Standards (or whomever they are called now). There are laws that have to be obeyed, and there are people there to enforce them.
If you are a vet who is regularly attending a holding/farm where the keeper is repeatedly failing the animals in their care, even after you have given guidance/advice, then you should report them to someone who can do something about it. Rant on here all you like if you want but if you don't report them you are also at fault. Too many people just turn a blind eye.
The assumption that "farmers" are all professionals who are fully aware of all the regulations and best welfare practices, and "smallholders" are not, is a fallacy. There are failings in both sectors.
The biggest problem is, livestock can be purchased and holding numbers/flock numbers can be obtained without any checking that the person applying for them / purchasing them are suitably qualified / informed. I assumed when I applied for my flock numbers that I would get sent out a pack or something listing all the rules that I have to adhere to .. but no, nothing. Even to be made aware that there are rules and pointed to where they can be found would have been something. In this day and age that would be an easy thing to do, with updates sent out at regular intervals to keep awareness up.
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Following on from "feeding sheep" thread, this now seems to be a contentious issue.
Discuss.
No, it's not, it's just the wording of that original post was a little inappropriate, as already discussed. As for the subject of this (pointless?) thread, the answer is yes, obviously.
If anyone sees a welfare issue then they must speak out, first to the person responsible, and if no progress is made then to Animal Health, APHA, Trading Standards (or whomever they are called now). There are laws that have to be obeyed, and there are people there to enforce them.
If you are a vet who is regularly attending a holding/farm where the keeper is repeatedly failing the animals in their care, even after you have given guidance/advice, then you should report them to someone who can do something about it. Rant on here all you like if you want but if you don't report them you are also at fault. Too many people just turn a blind eye.
The assumption that "farmers" are all professionals who are fully aware of all the regulations and best welfare practices, and "smallholders" are not, is a fallacy. There are failings in both sectors.
The biggest problem is, livestock can be purchased and holding numbers/flock numbers can be obtained without any checking that the person applying for them / purchasing them are suitably qualified / informed. I assumed when I applied for my flock numbers that I would get sent out a pack or something listing all the rules that I have to adhere to .. but no, nothing. Even to be made aware that there are rules and pointed to where they can be found would have been something. In this day and age that would be an easy thing to do, with updates sent out at regular intervals to keep awareness up.
I saw nothing inappropriate in the first post. In fact, I think the OP said she was probably was telling us something we all knew. I didn't see it as a rant at all. Merely someone trying to highlight an issue.
But...actually we don't all know everything. That is why people post on here asking questions and asking for help and refer to posts for information. So, if one person went out and condition scored their sheep after that post and then thought "actually my sheep aren't scoring well" and did something about it, it was a useful post.
People may not have liked how the OP compared different groups of people but that wasn't the important bit of the post.
Nor do I think the original post said that they had returned to the same farm three times for the same problem but rather to three different smallholding with the same issue, which I think was the prompt to write the original post.
I see the point about people educating themselves and there is lots of ways to do that. Courses, helping out, books, videos, internet. Rules and regs are easily found. However, at the end of the day not only are there people who shouldn't be allowed to keep animals but a wide spectrum in between that and being an "really, excellent" person to keep animals. You can set a minimum of skills you expect someone to have but at the end of the day there are some people who absolutely love their animals but have no animal sense. Then there are those with lots of sense and care about their animals but are not in the least sentimental.
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The post is as much about perception of Vets as animal welfare.
Vets are viewed differently by everybody, the perception of what a Vet is and does vs the reality of what a Vet is and does are usually far apart. Most animal keepers secretly view themselves as experts and many see Vets as authority figures sent to the planet to validate their own views. Where Vets agree with a persons view points they are crowned a "good Vet" and if they dare express a contrasting opinion offense is caused and often, the client makes it their lifes work to ruin the reputation of said Vet, usually taking to social media in the first instance to gather an enraged possy. No doubt there are 100s of bad Vet threads on here if you look.
It doesn't really matter that Farmvet highlighted smallholders in the post, it was smallholders that were involved and a smallholders forum is a perfect place to reach others so he/she/non-binary human/it/they have attempted to do the sheep of Britain a service by taking some of their own time to post. Thank you Farmvet :sheep:
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The right to express an opinion is one thing, its value is measured by each of us according to our own values, understanding and experience. We are all learning, vets included...
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Following on from "feeding sheep" thread, this now seems to be a contentious issue.
Discuss.
The biggest problem is, livestock can be purchased and holding numbers/flock numbers can be obtained without any checking that the person applying for them / purchasing them are suitably qualified / informed.
To extend the subject .... people have children without any qualifications or knowledge. The exhaustive process for adopting a child would see virtually all child cruelty cases disappear if anyone considering becoming pregnant had to go through the same thing first.
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Following on from "feeding sheep" thread, this now seems to be a contentious issue.
Discuss.
The biggest problem is, livestock can be purchased and holding numbers/flock numbers can be obtained without any checking that the person applying for them / purchasing them are suitably qualified / informed.
To extend the subject .... people have children without any qualifications or knowledge. The exhaustive process for adopting a child would see virtually all child cruelty cases disappear if anyone considering becoming pregnant had to go through the same thing first.
If only it was that simple. Having a child involves two people, both of whom should be suitable and then other factors come into play, which impact on lives and don't always have the best outcome.
We all learn to drive and pass the same qualification to drive but we all make different drivers.
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I have kept horses for over forty years, and when I first started there was one book about horse management in the library which I read over and over again, in my attempt to learn the right way to keep a horse.
The basics are the same, but most of the people who wrote those people where ex army, had family money and staff where I was working class, with a field and little but aspirations.
I get so cross because information about animal management is so freely available on the internet, you not need to have money to find it. The novice are ridiculed for being, well novice and yes they really should find this things out before they get the animal, but everyone else makes it looks so easy. The selfie generation hardly ever post their mistakes.
There is a common mistake that the vet is expensive, in my opinion when people with pay £30 to have their nails done every 2ish weeks, which takes 45mins, £35 for a vet to appear is a bargain, even if they say there is nothing wrong.
Now I am going to have a bit of a dig at vets. They have done all that training and are very clever, its harder to become a vet than a doctor, but they are not always the best communicators or the most practical of people. A bit like doctors they come in dispense their wisdom, and leave you scratching your head thinking how on earth do they expect me to do that. Often they need an interpreter. to explain things.
I think like Denplan they should encourage people to pay a yearly fee that entitled you to free 'flock' visits and perhaps discount on treatments, a practice nurse could do the basics, and nip some mistakes/problems in the bud, with a vet follow up for prescribing.
Most of us who have animals and have few problems practice prevention without even knowing it, that knowledge makes things look easy.
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Yes, far too many people trying to have a go at the Good Life without any experience whats so ever on looking after animals. I see cattle, sheep and horses in fields full of ragwort in the summer. In the same fields in the winter with no hay and if you try to give helpful advice you get told ,we have such and such number of books on what to do. Sad to say i have never met any animal that has read these books and after 50 years working with animals I am still learning I once suggested a lambing course to be told the sheep can lamb themselves and if they die they die !!!!!
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Yes, far too many people trying to have a go at the Good Life without any experience whats so ever on looking after animals.
To be fair I don't think starting without experience is the problem. I think it is about where you go from there. I grew up in the city with cats, dogs (as a young child), helping out Saturdays at a stables in my teens and a very brief stint with budgies and rabbits. I hadn't even touched a sheep until I was in my late 20s. We started the smallholding with my husband having no idea with any livestock and me having had some very minimal sheep handling. We started with chickens and geese and then a few months later added sheep in.
For all intents and purposes I had no experience, but I had spent the previous several years reading everything I could on here whilst doing my other studies. As we got the different animals I read what I could about them (the first geese and chickens were very suddenly rescued from a neighbour who had moved and left them for the foxes). I've always been keen to learn and open to advice. Someone mentions something about my animals and I'm immediately checking and seeing. I've not yet been told things need improving by anyone (which I guess is a good thing) but I have been told where I can cut corners (many of which after researching we have decided not to do).
I just wanted to give an alternative on people with no experience having a go at the good life. I really do think it isn't so much about experience as how much you are willing to learn and how open you are to hearing things from others.
Dans
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Following on from "feeding sheep" thread, this now seems to be a contentious issue.
Discuss.
The biggest problem is, livestock can be purchased and holding numbers/flock numbers can be obtained without any checking that the person applying for them / purchasing them are suitably qualified / informed.
To extend the subject .... people have children without any qualifications or knowledge. The exhaustive process for adopting a child would see virtually all child cruelty cases disappear if anyone considering becoming pregnant had to go through the same thing first.
If only it was that simple. Having a child involves two people, both of whom should be suitable and then other factors come into play, which impact on lives and don't always have the best outcome.
6 exhaustive sessions on personality, family history and family support network, inspection of home and child's bedroom, medical, household accounts (with sworn affa davit), interviews with parents and six lots of monthly visits after adoption takes place .... Not that much room for error.
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Following on from "feeding sheep" thread, this now seems to be a contentious issue.
Discuss.
The biggest problem is, livestock can be purchased and holding numbers/flock numbers can be obtained without any checking that the person applying for them / purchasing them are suitably qualified / informed.
To extend the subject .... people have children without any qualifications or knowledge. The exhaustive process for adopting a child would see virtually all child cruelty cases disappear if anyone considering becoming pregnant had to go through the same thing first.
If only it was that simple. Having a child involves two people, both of whom should be suitable and then other factors come into play, which impact on lives and don't always have the best outcome.
6 exhaustive sessions on personality, family history and family support network, inspection of home and child's bedroom, medical, household accounts (with sworn affa davit), interviews with parents and six lots of monthly visits after adoption takes place .... Not that much room for error.
And no mistakes happen? Adoption is the part of our care system and there are plenty of horror stories there.
What sort of world would we live in if we had to go though this sort of process before we had children. Yes, it might reduce the number of children ending up in care, create new jobs but I wonder how many decent families wouldn't actually be able to tick all the boxes because they failed a medical, didn't earn enough, didn't quite fit the bill?
Then what about step parents - would the process start all over again?
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Remember that most people who become vets after an intense medical 5 year study that is comparable to a humans surgeon/ medical persons training . They do it because of their desire to work with help animals your feelings don't often come into it . They also have to do regular CPC updates .
You can become a smallholder/ animal keeper without knowing which end of the pig you have to put the apples in .
If you decide to take the hump about what the vet says , you're likely to miss out on why it's been said .
I've seen small holders give human grade medicines & salves etc. to animals & couldn't take on board as to why it's such a no no or why the vet went loopy .
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I wish clodhopper's comments were true but I've met and worked with all sorts.. those vets who have skills and compassion, those with just one of the above and those that view themselves more as deserving of professional respect and status and shun the difficult or inconvenient - more so amongst the millenials brought up with sound-bite beliefs in work-life balance and showing themselves to have better salary/perks/benefits than their contemporaries.
Notwithstanding the above I believe it is the duty of a vet to act as advocate for the animal and speak out when necessary. Yeah, i offended some folk who didn't like to hear my views and suprisingly many of them came back when they realised they got the real truth from me rather than some sugar-coated platitudes.
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As a RGN and a VN, I have seen both. Parents of a toddler who has been burnt with a hot drink, putting toothpaste on the burn, as the menthol will cool it... ( don't ask, it doesn't work ) and sheep owners rubbing mint leaves on a section of fly strike that you could put your fist in...as mint deters flies. People need teaching, or animals suffer from neglect Neglect can be over care, or lack of care, and isn't always intensional. Death by over weight is as bad as starvation.