[farmvet]

Following on from "feeding sheep" thread, this now seems to be a contentious issue.
Discuss.

[SallyintNorth]

Yes.

Whether it might be more effective if the vet(s) in question expressed their opinions as just that - opinions - is perhaps a moot point . But I think any of us can and hopefully do bring any such issues to the attention of the forum, don’t we?

[nutterly_uts]

100% yes. And across ALL animals - I used to be a VN in a busy mixed practice hospital and its an issue across every single animal - some of the smalls and exotics are abused very badly but with no malice intended, and killing with kindness is just as common.
I am honestly starting to wonder if there should be some form of license to own any animal where you have to prove a basic level of husbandry and knowledge - I'm on a chicken forum atm and its horrific how many get chickens (or worse, hatch em) and have no idea what so ever about ANYTHING and expect to wing it (pun unintended)

[pharnorth]

yes please. An opinion is just an opinion. An informed opinion is a different beast to an uninformed opinion. So a bit of background or explanation is needed so the reader can tell one from the other.   

[Ermingtrude]

Yes.

Another VN here - qualified in the early 90's, and a horse owner since my teens. I have had horses and dogs all my life, and have added chickens in the last 7 years. Along with books and internet, I have kept a happy flock of no more than 10 at a time, and my oldest girl is 9. I've had fox issues, and learned about mites, and how chickens will think little polystyrene beads are snail eggs and eat them, and that birds of prey are as likely to take them as a fox is. I moved into sheep last year, and have 4 lovely Wiltshires who met a nice Wiltshire chap this winter. I am hoping for the patter of little feet later in spring. I also gained 4 Zwartbles ladies, already pregnant, and 8 lambs soon joined the household. The 4 ladies are now retired, and the lambs growing nicely, and I gained a huge amount of help and information from this forum ( and others, and books, and the vet ) when we had a mastitis issue. I also learned that being flattened by several large sheep while trying to put feed in their trough, doesn't just happen to me !

I am lucky that I have a great local vet surgery that offer phone advice, and also run regular small-holder meetings to discuss issues, and do workshops such as sheep footcare, basic lambing tips, and talks on worming and vaccination. They do discounts on ""Lambing boxes"" to let people stock up on gloves, gel, antibiotics, stomach tubes, iodine etc - and also give advice on using them.  I would feel my vets would be not doing the best they could, if they saw something I was doing/not doing that wasn't good for welfare, and they didn't mention it. In fact they are already telling people they know to have chickens, about the current issue with bird flu in the south west of the UK, and the potential connotations.

Cruelty by omission or lack of understanding is still cruel to the animal, even if there is no intent to be cruel. I've seen enough flabby pets brought in with arthritis, and breathing issues, to know that over-feeding can be as bad as underfeeding, and having now owned sheep - how hard it is to get an idea of weight/condition by sight alone. And how quickly a week of rain and cold temperatures, coupled with diarrhoea and not recognising that the grass ( still looking green and plentiful ) doesn't actually have much nutritional benefit in winter, can drop a sheep from a pudgy 3 to a barely 2, in a matter of days.

Whoever it is - owner, vet, worried passer by, concerned neighbour - speak out and try to improve the situation.

[Dans]

Yes, although I would say something should be said to the owner before it is used as an example elsewhere. I don't mean permission to share but rather tell the owners where they are going wrong.

I visited a few farms during my studies and the difference in welfare was stark in some of them. I was surprised that the vet I was with knew the farmers for a long time, seemed used to their ways but powerless to do anything. They reminded the owners about 3 times before we left one visit that an older ewe with a prolapse swinging between her legs needed to be shot that day and shouldn't be in flock when they come back next week. The vet did offer put the ewe down there and then but the owner insisted he'd do it later. At another point, when I was searching for snails in their fields I came across multiple corpses of various ages. Farms like that can give farming a bad name and little seems to be done.

I saw some wonderful commercial farms with well cared for animals, but that one will always stay with me.

I think vets should share stories anonymously to other animal keepers to show how to not go wrong, but I also think there should be a way for them to report such animal welfare issues (after they have tried to get through to the owner), if something like that already exists then there should be more encouragement for vets to use it.

Dans

[Buttermilk]

Definitely YES.

As long as the people/places concerned are not identified the bringing such problems into awareness is useful to all.

[kanisha]

Yes  no need to qualify further,  would expect a professional approach and an objective opinion,   from another VN

[Womble]

A different angle:  I really only see my own livestock, plus maybe a few other animals over the fence as I drive past. Also, although I could now be considered competent with the basics, I am still only at the stage of 'conscious incompetence' with anything that is out of the ordinary:



Hearing about issues from a vet is incredibly valuable because they have both the training and wide ranging experience to be classed as either consciously competent (I know, and I also know that I know), or unconsciously competent (I know, but it's now so natural to me that I forget how hard it was to get here!).

We had one vet come out here who had been born on a farm, and really couldn't grasp how I could possibly take four attempts to tip a sheep, then administered treatment without really explaining what he was doing or why. The practice manager came out the next week though, and couldn't have been more helpful. He didn't patronise, but instead took the time to explain his diagnosis and the treatment options, starting from the level I was at. They were both good vets, and both treated my animals effectively. Guess whose invoice I paid more willingly though?

So, here's a warning to the vets, or anybody else who's highly experienced:

Take a minute to remember how you got to where you are now. Remember that actually it involved many years of hard work and indeed mistakes along the way. Now remember that the rest of us really need the benefit of your experience, but also be kind - you're likely to provoke some very uncomfortable feelings in us when you point out our failings.

And here's some advice to the rest of us (I include myself in this):

Accept that there are some things you know, and some things you know you don't know. There will also be some things you don't know that you don't know, and those are the things that pose a danger to your livestock, no matter how deeply you care about them. We are lucky to have a number of highly experienced people on this forum who give of their expertise willingly and for free. If some of the advice shared makes you go 'ouch', weigh it carefully, and then if it's correct, swallow hard and take it on board as a necessary step in your own development. Don't take anything personally though, since it won't have been intended that way, and by taking offence, you will lose the benefit of the lesson.

[shep53]

YES

[Fleecewife]

That's exactly it Womble 


There is also knowing you know but in fact being wrong, but you don't know that.

[Me]

No. Vet school is a five year factory designed to remove the student from their common sense which is then distributed to those who did not attend.

[Womble]

There is also knowing you know but in fact being wrong, but you don't know that.

That's right too, Fleecewife. The step that's missing from the diagram is that we often lapse back into unconscious incompetence after a while. The classic example is bad or inattentive driving by people who've been doing it for years.

[Marches Farmer]

Is it indifference, ignorance or arrogance that underlies animal cruelty, or a combination of those?  I've seen horses sweltering under a NZ rug on a warm day, sheep with CODD lesions, chickens dying of anaemia due to lice infestation and a good many other things, all with non-farming owners who had no idea their animals were suffering, let alone why.

[Ermingtrude]

Is it indifference, ignorance or arrogance that underlies animal cruelty, or a combination of those?  I've seen horses sweltering under a NZ rug on a warm day, sheep with CODD lesions, chickens dying of anaemia due to lice infestation and a good many other things, all with non-farming owners who had no idea their animals were suffering, let alone why.

Probably all of the above.

Many people keep horses on DIY livery, and visit them early morning, and then evening. Easy to put a rug on at 0600 and feel it is fine for the current temp, and forget it gets warmer in the daytime. Also easy put a rug on to stop the horse getting muddy. Both are (IMHO) not acceptable. but I have the luxury of having the horses at home, and can change clothing as and when needed. As for bugs and mites - for all stock, dogs, horses, hens, sheep etc - having a regular and thorough hands on approach makes it more likely to spot stuff, as does having a basic read of the issues likely to happen. Hens and mites - sheep and internal worms, horses and weight issues etc .   I don't worry about sunburn on my dog, and I don't worry about mastitis on at least 2 of my sheep - but you need to have an idea of what may cause an issue, and learn to look for it.