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Author Topic: EID Wefare Issues  (Read 17154 times)

Seadog

  • Joined Jun 2010
EID Wefare Issues
« on: June 12, 2010, 06:07:22 pm »
Does anyone know - at what stage does animal welfare take priority over electronic tagging regulations?  We recently took delivery of four 3-month old lambs that had just been tagged with EID buttons as well as conventional tags.  Within a week one of lambs had the button torn right out of the ear and a couple of days later another was half ripped out and covered with blood, so we clipped it off on welfare grounds to prevent inevitable further damage.  It seems the size of the tags (25mm diameter) and loose fit (8mm in the gap) make these particularly prone to snagging on the stock fencing against which the lambs love to lie.  The conventional tags seem OK.  As we are going to keep the lambs for breeding presumably the tags have to go back in, at least when the ears are fully healed, though we are reluctant to put them through the same trauma again.  Is there an active campaign to have these ridiculous regulations subordinated to welfare considerations?

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: EID Wefare Issues
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2010, 06:54:48 pm »
A very good point. The problems we have heard of are when newborn lambs are tagged, to be sold at foot with their dams.  One breeder had 80% tag losses with resultant tearing of the ears of the lambs, and of course he could not then sell the lambs.  The different types/makes of EID tag have different reputations for tearing, staying in, breaking, being too heavy etc, and different breeds of sheep have varying degrees of problems. The tags you describe sound like button tags. The breeder mentioned above tried to take his experience up with the manufacturer (Daltons I think in his case) and got nowhere and is now I think in discussions with DEFRA, although I don't know how those are progressing. We have approached Animal Health and received no response which is no surprise.
The stand you take depends on your personal view - I would be happy to argue the toss in the situation you describe and leave the EID tag out.  If the animal has it's other identifier in then there is no justification other than bureaucratic completeness for re-inserting the EID tag, unless the animal is leaving your property.  The seller was obliged by law to put both tags in before selling to you so he is not to blame.
Some tag manufacturers seem to have put more effort into EID research than others.  We have still not ordered our tags for this years lambs because of the stories we have been hearing......
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

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ScotsGirl

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • Wiltshire
Re: EID Wefare Issues
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2010, 11:35:35 pm »
Well I personally think it is cruel and pointless.  I bought four ewes a couple of years ago and their ears have been mutilated by the whole tagging and re-tagging procedure when they get ripped out.  It seems pointless as movement forms do not list the actual animals moving and so I don't see where the traceability comes into it.

I understand and agree that animals have to be indentifiable and linked to their owner but surely there is a kinder method.

For an animal welfare organisation there does not seem to be any welfare thought for the animals.

Ranting over, I leave tagging until slaughter time or unfortunately now when I had to move my sheep onto some decent grass.  Even at 3 months the tags looked huge in their tiny ears.

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: EID Wefare Issues
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2010, 01:05:35 am »
Well, the EID system is set up to supposedly speed up the processes of sheep going through marts and to slaughter, because the tags should be readable without a person having to handle every sheep and read each tag number.  However, given that there are more sheep in Britain than any other country in Europe, you could be forgiven for thinking that the rules are designed just to get at the Brits. Most of the problems seem to arise in smaller breeds of sheep, which are usually also rare breeds and the RBST is in an ideal position to take up this cause.  Even though I am a member I have not heard that they have made any progress here.  European countries with relatively small numbers of sheep have a derogation not to have the EID system and apparently Ouessants have a personal derogation in France because they are small.  So only Britain seems to feel the need to impose the rules slavishly across the board, in spite of the problems which clearly exist. Tagging itself has long been a cause for welfare concern, but the EID tags are a bit heavier and bulkier, often just enough to tip the balance and our sheep end up with shredded ears. I have a suspicion that those who make the rules in Brussels have never seen a sheep close up, let alone wondered how strong their ears are.
I think the movement docs will soon change so individual numbers have to be recorded.  Already you should be recording individual numbers in your flock records.....
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

woollyval

  • Joined Feb 2008
  • Near Bodmin, Cornwall
    • Val Grainger
    • Facebook
Re: EID Wefare Issues
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2010, 08:01:28 pm »
This is an interesting discussion!

I have reluctantly taged my sheep for years due to ripped ears and at one point had a lovely Dorset Down breeding ram with 2 cauliflower ears due to tags and they were so bad I could not put another tag in either, resulting in Animal health saying I could not move him at all.....which was frustrating as that included to slaughter ::)............what advice did they give....none!

I now keep Ouessants that have ears approx 2 x1 inches.....and normal small tags are a problem let alone atag the same size as their ears!
Therefore I am trying to get small eid tags and hitting a brick wall. I am trying to sell some stock but cannot move a ewe and lamb due to lack of suitable tags....and I will not use huge heavy tags as its a welfare issue.....Just wish more folks would lobby....RBST...???
www.valgrainger.co.uk

Overall winner of the Devon Environmental Business Awards 2009

Declan

  • Joined Sep 2009
  • Rathfriland, Co.Down
Re: EID Wefare Issues
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2010, 10:06:44 pm »
I fee lstrongly about this- I have just bought 2 ewes with ram lambs at foot. The lambs are approx 4 weeks old. I bought them on 2/6/10 therefore they were tagged when purchased. The night I bought them I overheard a big sheep farmer (this guy spends approx £6k per mart night buying lambs for the factory). When everybody else was moaing about the nuisance of the tags he said straight out that it was cruel- "downright cruel" was his exact words.
Well I got my sheep home and within 2 days one of the lambs had caught its ear on the stock proof fence- as I approached it it pulled away and tore the ear right down the middle- blood everywhere- it was heart wrenching to see. I got him cleaned up  and sprayed with antiseptic spray. As I am only keeping these until they gain the correct weight for slaughter then i will have to retag them before i they leave for the mart. Not looking forward to it one bloody bit.

Declan 

VSS

  • Joined Jan 2009
  • Pen Llyn
    • Viable Self Sufficiency.co.uk
Re: EID Wefare Issues
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2010, 12:10:16 pm »
A lot of difference can be made be ensuring you choose the correct type of tag for your sheep and more importantly make sure it is inserted correctly.

There seem to be alot of you that have only a few sheep yet are loosing alot of tags. We changed to a different make of tag a few years ago and have been really pleased with them. In the last three years we have tagged over 600 lambs and only 1 has lost its tag. We use a one piece loop tag that is designed to split before the sheep's ear does if it gets caught on something and they are ultra flexible so they bend  and ping out of fences before the ear tears.

For us it is very important to be able to identify our shee individually so instead of putting two tags in the ears, we use a tattoo as the visual identifier and add one EID tag.

Also, a high rate of tag loss may be due to poor fencing and shortage of grass. If you have saggy fences and lambs are putting their heads through to get at the better grass on the other side you are more likely to loose tags and rip ears. Don't pen sheep up against a netting fence as they will get caught and are more likely to tear out their tags.

I think there are lots of things that can be done to reduce tag loss and ear damage - ranting isn't likely to help much.
The SHEEP Book for Smallholders
Available from the Good Life Press

www.viableselfsufficiency.co.uk

Declan

  • Joined Sep 2009
  • Rathfriland, Co.Down
Re: EID Wefare Issues
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2010, 02:13:58 pm »
VSS- please help me out- the loop tag you refer to- does it have the chip in it. The only tag i've seen for this EID business is a button type tag a little bigger than a 10pence piece. As you have shown maybe its the type of tag we are using. Any advice gratefully received.
Declan

woollyval

  • Joined Feb 2008
  • Near Bodmin, Cornwall
    • Val Grainger
    • Facebook
Re: EID Wefare Issues
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2010, 03:12:44 pm »
Not ranting....just expressing concern! When you have lots of small fields to graze, even with more than enough grass (we stock 4 to the acre max) we still lose tags and rip ears and believe me its quite often breed specific! As you know I have had a lot of sheep and a lot of different breeds through my hands over many years and the commercial texel cross or mule types with big ears never had problems and I use a similar tag to yourselves. However we did have the odd one such as the ram who got cauliflower ears through sparring with other rams with the eartags causing the problems. In the years long ago before big tags I never had a problem.....and I used to use button tags after before switching to a wraparound

Its the little primitive type sheep that seem to have the main problems as they have very small thin ears and ordinary tags are enough of a problem!
The French use tiny metal tags for Ouessants and Soays and they cause no damage at all.....


 
www.valgrainger.co.uk

Overall winner of the Devon Environmental Business Awards 2009

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: EID Wefare Issues
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2010, 03:48:50 pm »
VSS - which brand of EID tag are you using?  I haven't ordered mine yet this year as still trying to find one suitable for Hebridean and Soay ears which are small, so a brand name would be helpful.
Val - the tiny metal wing tags the Ouessants use don't hold the EID bit, and unfortunately would pull out if they did as they have a very thin pin.  We use them as temp tags for our lambs so we don't have to put in permanent tags until they are about 4 months old.
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

VSS

  • Joined Jan 2009
  • Pen Llyn
    • Viable Self Sufficiency.co.uk
Re: EID Wefare Issues
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2010, 03:51:26 pm »
VSS- please help me out- the loop tag you refer to- does it have the chip in it. The only tag i've seen for this EID business is a button type tag a little bigger than a 10pence piece. As you have shown maybe its the type of tag we are using. Any advice gratefully received.
Declan

Declan,

The tags we use are Allflex bubblegum tags - available as an eid and visual pair. Minimumorder of 10. A pair of loop tags, the EID one had the chip in the pin that goes through the ear.
 http://www.allflex.co.uk/bubblegum-eid--visual-bubblegum-c-59-p-59
The SHEEP Book for Smallholders
Available from the Good Life Press

www.viableselfsufficiency.co.uk

Declan

  • Joined Sep 2009
  • Rathfriland, Co.Down
Re: EID Wefare Issues
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2010, 04:05:40 pm »
They look quite good- compared to the ones they had in when I bought them. Thanks for that.

Declan
 

woollyval

  • Joined Feb 2008
  • Near Bodmin, Cornwall
    • Val Grainger
    • Facebook
Re: EID Wefare Issues
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2010, 09:25:40 pm »

Val - the tiny metal wing tags the Ouessants use don't hold the EID bit, and unfortunately would pull out if they did as they have a very thin pin.  We use them as temp tags for our lambs so we don't have to put in permanent tags until they are about 4 months old.

Yes I know! They have not yet settled on a tag to use instead yet from what I read in the newsletters etc (all in French!!) I have several French sheep who still have their French ID as well as their British and they are pinless they are more like the metal pig or cattle tags of old on a tiny scale. The French are going to have a problem with this one!
I tend to tag during the winter...... ::) ;)
www.valgrainger.co.uk

Overall winner of the Devon Environmental Business Awards 2009

Freddiesfarm

  • Joined Jan 2010
Re: EID Wefare Issues
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2010, 09:31:27 am »
Interestingly there was a case a couple of years ago when a couple were banned from keeping dogs on cruelty grounds for having the dog's ear pierced with a gold stud!

So it is cruel to dogs but ok for sheep, pigs, cows!   

Not sure what you lot do for pigs but we have always slap marked ours just before they go to slaughter - word on the street is that you will soon have to ear tag only as slap marking is cruel too now!  The only pigs we ever had with ear tags in ripped their ears so badly we had to call the vet out. 

 

Shnoowie

  • Joined Mar 2010
  • Cornwall
    • Binty's Farm
Re: EID Wefare Issues
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2010, 11:19:09 am »
We tagged our two Ryeland lambs a couple of months ago with SET tags (http://www.shearwell.co.uk/electronicID/tags.aspx) one electronic and one visual; a slight variation of the ones used by VSS.  We haven't had any problems and ours have been against fences and in the hedges.  I've noticed that our older ewe has an SET tag which has split but still remained in her ear so whether it 'pinged' when it got caught or it has just broken due to age, I don't know.
I'd definitely recommend either this type or the type VSS uses.

 

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