[SallyintNorth]

And disease isn't spread at sales where it's purebred animals being sold 

I do understand the desire to run a closed flock, only bringing in tups when necessary, especially if there are transmissible diseases and resistant worms in your area. 

When Sue & I moved up to the moorland farm, we'd expected that we'd want to be organic.  Because our product was Mule ewe lambs, we did only need to think about bringing in tups, and could (and did) breed our own replacement Swaledale ewes.  We also had a Mule flock of our own and kept a couple of Texel/Beltex tups for them.  The BFL and terminal tups could stay as long as they could work, as they were never going to be put onto their daughters, it was only the Swaledale tups we had to be more careful about - we could only keep them for three seasons.  (In their third season we kept them away from the gimmers.)

However, there was, unsurprisingly I suppose, no market at all for organic Mule ewe lambs, because organic systems generally try to run closed flocks.  We could have tried to find someone who wanted to use Mules and be organic, and had a setup where they only bought from us, but by the time we'd realised we'd have to have derogations for flukicides etc, the whole organic principle was being so diluted we felt it pointless to go for certification.

Ironically, we found that we ended up selling the bulk of our Mule ewe lamb crop to the same farm (direct farm to farm sale, albeit initially arranged through the auction company) year after year after year - nice to know they liked them

You will find at the big sales up here that the bulk of the Mule gimmers from established producers are bought by the same buyers year after year after year, and the same for draft ewes too.  Going through the auction ring ensures that the price is fair to both.  When we wanted a pen of draft Mules from a specific buyer last year we had to meet the usual buyer and agree with him which pen we would have!  He bid us up to the same price he'd bought the previous pen for, so all was fair for all

Until very recently a lot of the marts up here used for the Mule sales, and the hill sheep too, were outdoors, many of them earth pens.  Defra don't like that, want covered pens with washable cement - but there's an argument to say that less disease gets transmitted in open air .  Of course the worry was FMD, so the earth pens were a risk.  And we get a lot of rain up here  so overall I guess rooves are a good thing, on balance.

[SallyintNorth]

very interesting to read about your system and your reason for keeping, and your experiences with, Mules, Keepers.   

I don't suppose Sally minds us nattering on about all things Mule.  It's normal for conversations to expand, I think, where the subject matter is of interest to several opinionated people . 

In fairness I have to say we do get some sore feet in the Mules, not to an enormous extent but some.  In general, though, the Mule is such a good eater and attentive mother that they keep going and don't lose condition if they have sore feet, where a Texel ewe might just lie down and say it's all too difficult.  (Makes the latter easier to catch, is the only benefit!  lol.)  And as you say, you can't select for good feet in bought-in sheep, only by finding producers whose sheep do better for you and then sticking with them.

[SallyintNorth]

Porterlauren and others in areas where a Mule may be the daughter of a Border Leicester or a BFL - so are there Border Leicesters about in your area?  I don't know of any hereabouts, though I am aware of a few flocks in Scotland.  It's a Rare Breed, in the 'minority' category, which means there must 1500-3000 of them somewhere!  Perhaps they're (nearly) all in Wales?

[Bionic]

I didn't expect my post to recieve such attention. Having said that its very interesting.
I am in South West'ish Wales and it seems that, at least my local farmers here, are using a BFL terminal sire to get the chunky lambs that they send off. Fleece isn't a consideration for them as the WMB takes all their whites. Its only this odd one that came my way and very grateful for it I am too.
The dyed yarn is nearly dry so I will post some pics in the craft section later today.

[Keepers]

In fairness I have to say we do get some sore feet in the Mules, not to an enormous extent but some.  In general, though, the Mule is such a good eater and attentive mother that they keep going and don't lose condition if they have sore feet, where a Texel ewe might just lie down and say it's all too difficult.  (Makes the latter easier to catch, is the only benefit!  lol.)  And as you say, you can't select for good feet in bought-in sheep, only by finding producers whose sheep do better for you and then sticking with them.

This is very true

I find that my texel cross ewes do not get bad feet like the mules do

I suppose if the mule ewe was a pure breed or a stabilized composite, and everyone could run closed flocks of mules, mules breeding more mules tupped by mules, then the breed could be bred for good feet, lambing issues, etc

I often do wonder why no one has attempted to stabilize and then improve (within each persons flock) the mule, it can't be just because of the lack of hybrid viguor as everyone keeps pure breds and lleyns, easycares, romneys etc without complaining that they lack hybrid vigour 

Another big issue for me, is that I run a low input forage only system, some mules do well on this, many do not, there is no way of telling which would do well just by looking at them, or when I buy a pen, and I have yet to hear of a breeder which breeds mules outside with no cake and only forage, because many are bred up in the hills I suppose, but I know of ones bred on downland which are still fed

Either way, I have a self replacing flock of crossbreds etc and still am searching for a hardy maternal breed to add to it, and then may always run a separate little group of mules for people to look at and relate to the lambs and also to produce a very early crop, still run just off grass like everything else 

[Keepers]

Porterlauren and others in areas where a Mule may be the daughter of a Border Leicester or a BFL - so are there Border Leicesters about in your area?  I don't know of any hereabouts, though I am aware of a few flocks in Scotland.  It's a Rare Breed, in the 'minority' category, which means there must 1500-3000 of them somewhere!  Perhaps they're (nearly) all in Wales?

At the Thame sheep fair, there are often half breds going through the sale ring, where they come from I have no clue

[SallyintNorth]

I often do wonder why no one has attempted to stabilize and then improve (within each persons flock) the mule, it can't be just because of the lack of hybrid viguor as everyone keeps pure breds and lleyns, easycares, romneys etc without complaining that they lack hybrid vigour 

Do they though?  I know of more farmers who've tried Lleyns and Romneys and gone away from them, or use them as one of the several breeds in a multi-generation breeding programme, than I do farmers who keep and use 'em pure.

And in commercial Texel and Beltex breeding, there is a constant influx of 'foreign' blood to prevent stagnation of the sheep.  Mostly literally foreign - bringing in Texels from other countries; the introduction of the Dutch Texel a few years back invigorated the tups and their offspring but they're needing another dose of foreign now...

And if you read my post about Luing and Blue Grey cattle, I think you will see why no-one is trying to produce a self-replicating Mule.

Not to mention the original reason we have them - only the hill type sheep can 'do' on the hills and moorlands, and producing the Mule gives them a profitable crop.

[SallyintNorth]

I do agree that Mules generally need feed in the latter stages of pregnancy, at least hereabouts she does.  Dad being a BFL, the Mule is a prolific mother, putting her all into her multiple lambs and the milk for them.  She's always put to a larger tup than she is, usually a strapping heavily-muscled terminal fella, so it's hardly surprising she needs a bit of extra to help her grow, birth and feed her mahoosive litter. 

Not really fair to compare that to a pure breed sheep being put to the same breed tup as she is.

[Keepers]

I often do wonder why no one has attempted to stabilize and then improve (within each persons flock) the mule, it can't be just because of the lack of hybrid viguor as everyone keeps pure breds and lleyns, easycares, romneys etc without complaining that they lack hybrid vigour 

Do they though?  I know of more farmers who've tried Lleyns and Romneys and gone away from them, or use them as one of the several breeds in a multi-generation breeding programme, than I do farmers who keep and use 'em pure.

Not to mention the original reason we have them - only the hill type sheep can 'do' on the hills and moorlands, and producing the Mule gives them a profitable crop.

Yes I also know of people who have had lleyns (for example) and gone back to the mule, however I'm pretty sure that more and more people have flocks of lleyns, romneys etc than they had a few years ago? I may be wrong...
many of the people who buy my tups can relate to what a mule cross lamb looks like, however the vast majority of them now have a breed and once had a mule and came away, in order to improve the genetics within the flock

I did not mean breeding them pure all the time, as most flocks breed pure for replacements and then cross breed for meat lambs

[Me]

Porterlauren and others in areas where a Mule may be the daughter of a Border Leicester or a BFL - so are there Border Leicesters about in your area?  I don't know of any hereabouts, though I am aware of a few flocks in Scotland.  It's a Rare Breed, in the 'minority' category, which means there must 1500-3000 of them somewhere!  Perhaps they're (nearly) all in Wales?

None around here 

[Keepers]

I do agree that Mules generally need feed in the latter stages of pregnancy, at least hereabouts she does.  Dad being a BFL, the Mule is a prolific mother, putting her all into her multiple lambs and the milk for them.  She's always put to a larger tup than she is, usually a strapping heavily-muscled terminal fella, so it's hardly surprising she needs a bit of extra to help her grow, birth and feed her mahoosive litter. 

Not really fair to compare that to a pure breed sheep being put to the same breed tup as she is.

I was not comparing a mule having a terminal lamb to a breed being bred pure

Other smaller ewe breeds are put to the same tups that a mule is
The Lleyn? is smaller than a mule and is put to the same tups, the Highlander, welsh ewes, the hill Cheviots, easycares are all smaller than a north of england mule and are put to the same tups

However yes they may produce a smaller lamb as they are a smaller ewe, the mule may produce a bigger faster growing lamb as they are a bigger ewe, so its a difficult one

There is a flock of 350 north of england mule ewes an hour away from me, they do FEC's, they have not wormed the flock for 3 years now as had no reason to, they mules are lambed outside and thrive off just haylage over lambing and they produce lambs that are ready year round (fairly slow growing lambs tbh)
However they know that they have had these mules for a whilst now and the likelihood of finding mules which do the same job as these is slim, so therefore they are now crossing them all with lleyn tups and keeping the ewe lambs, any which dont thrive on the system are getting culled and they can finally breed for good feet
As feet is a big issue on the farm

So if I had mules like they had (not the bad feet ones) I would be happy  but to find those ones is difficult and I wouldnt know where to start or how?

But yes mules will always be made as the little hill ewes will get put to BFL tups to produce them, and they are hard working good ewes which do the job for most people!
I suppose most people perhaps do not put as high a cost on looking after poor feet/feeding cake etc so therefore those issues arent such big issues at all? just is normal sheep care, and the mule carries on doing her job and doing it well and keeps everyone happy 

Its when people want breeds who have less incidences of these things by selective breeding and breeding/culling for key individual traits that they move away from the mule

I am a big advocate for low input/forage and grass based/selective breeding type of sheep keeping, and I think in this current climate that it could be the way forwards for many people

However I am not going to go around and tell people to swap the mules/higher input sheep for something else, as they may be perfect for who loves them and for who keeps them and they may suit that system just fine, if I could breed for good feet/forage based within the mules then I would they are easy to handle sheep and I find them good mothers and very milky 

I will probably always keep a few of them however with culling them off for feet I will most likely have to buy them in again each year, I am thinking of trying a different type of mule though maybe instead of welsh ones, many many people tup mules as ewe lambs so want to see what lambs out of ewe lambs look like, last year I bought welsh mule ewe lambs, this year I might go for something different 

Everyones land and systems are different, and there is no such thing as "one fits all" what works for me may not appeal or work for others, and vice versa 

[SallyintNorth]

Have you ever tried Footvxaxing your mules as they come in?

[Keepers]

Have you ever tried Footvxaxing your mules as they come in?

No I have not tried this? it did cross my mind the other day when I saw it mentioned somewhere 

How much does it cost per ewe and how effective would it be?

I may need to do some research

[SallyintNorth]

I don't know the answers to your questions, but I believe it is generally very effective.  If Defra are to be believed, culling any ewe that gets foot problems after Footvaxing should result in a foot-healthy group.

Maybe talk to your vet and see what they think

[mowhaugh]

Here in the Borders, bluehead = mule, border = half bred.  Not saying anyone is right or wrong, just how it is here too.  The way the bluehead has changed, from the traditional type to the crossing type, as shown in Sally's photos is amazing.  Dad was telling me a few weeks ago about when the first crossing type was taken to the society sale at Hexham (where I'm from really, the borders being where I live now), the man wasn't allowed to sell it, so he conducted his own auction in the car park, and it fetched a fortune.  Now, the majority of sheep at the sale are that speckeldy pattern, for producing a darker mule.  I love a good mule, my best childhood memories are of preparing mules lambs for sale at Bellingham, and then the sale days there, I get very nostalgic whenever I smell bloom dip!