[Porterlauren]

Probably been explained in better detail above, but a mule is basically the offspring of any hill breed with either a BFL or a Border Leicester put over them. The idea is that you get the hardiness, mothering ability etc of the hill breed and the milkiness and prolificy of the BFL/Border.

They can be real good ewes and I grew up with my old man running Welsh Mules. However, unfortunately they can also be fairly crap! Bred for 'bony heads' and other daft things, and as they are a x-bred, bought in ewe, they lack the performance recording of other breeds, for the most part.

[Marches Farmer]

True.  Folks go on about "hybrid vigour" but if you cross a poor quality ewe with a poor quality ram you get a poor quality hybrid.

[SallyintNorth]

a mule is basically the offspring of any hill breed with either a BFL or a Border Leicester put over them.

It's maybe different in Ireland, but hereabouts we call them 'half-breds' if dad is a Border Leicester, and 'mules' only if Dad is a Blue-faced (or Crossing ) Leicester.

And then there's Masham, where Dad is a Teeswater or Wensleydale.

They can be real good ewes and I grew up with my old man running Welsh Mules. However, unfortunately they can also be fairly crap! Bred for 'bony heads' and other daft things, and as they are a x-bred, bought in ewe, they lack the performance recording of other breeds, for the most part.

The hill sheep flocks that mother them and the crossing Leicesters that father them have been bred for many hundreds of generations now, selecting for the production of well-marked and well-performing Mule ewe offspring.  So whilst yes there may not be EBVs, there are thousands of years of knowledge and experience and selection in the breeding.  If you buy North of England Mule gimmers from an established breeder, you won't go far wrong.

[Me]

A mule does not have to be sired by a blue. PL is correct.

[SallyintNorth]

A mule does not have to be sired by a blue. PL is correct.

Maybe the terminology is used differently in different regions.  A Mule is the daughter of a BFL dad hereabouts, and not any other tup.  And that's the definition in the NSA Sheep Book too.

[Me]

It may be written, but that does not make it so

[Porterlauren]

a mule is basically the offspring of any hill breed with either a BFL or a Border Leicester put over them.

It's maybe different in Ireland, but hereabouts we call them 'half-breds' if dad is a Border Leicester, and 'mules' only if Dad is a Blue-faced (or Crossing ) Leicester.

And then there's Masham, where Dad is a Teeswater or Wensleydale.

They can be real good ewes and I grew up with my old man running Welsh Mules. However, unfortunately they can also be fairly crap! Bred for 'bony heads' and other daft things, and as they are a x-bred, bought in ewe, they lack the performance recording of other breeds, for the most part.

The hill sheep flocks that mother them and the crossing Leicesters that father them have been bred for many hundreds of generations now, selecting for the production of well-marked and well-performing Mule ewe offspring.  So whilst yes there may not be EBVs, there are thousands of years of knowledge and experience and selection in the breeding.  If you buy North of England Mule gimmers from an established breeder, you won't go far wrong.

Hello Sally!

I'm not in Ireland, I'm in Wales, and I believe I am correct in what I say r.e Borders/Blues. Possibly a local thing?

R.E The performance recording. . . . . . without wanting to open a can of worms, or upset anyone too much. . . . the fact that you have mentioned them being bred to produce 'well marked' offspring, kind of supports my point. I've never seen how the markings or indeed 'bonny heid' on a ewe could have any bearing on its commercial usefulness.

As for 1000's of years of knowledge (and I think it may be closer to 100's?). . . . i'll take it with a pinch of salt. There are a hell of a lot of knowledgeable breeders out there, breeding useful stock, however, at the end of the day, a lot of folk 'just do what the old man did'....... and breed for a 'look'. I don't deny that the hill ewes are bloody good at their job, but I wouldn't touch a leicester with a barge pole!!! There are far far far better composites out there now, which combine similar genetics (in terms of principle) but are a true breeding type, which can be bred as a closed flock and hence genetically improved on 'on farm'. That's what I was actually referring to - the ability to improve the breed itself, rather than improve the breeds used to create the x-breed and hope it all falls into place in the offspring. . . . does that make any sense?

[SallyintNorth]

A Mule is the daughter of a BFL dad hereabouts, and not any other tup. 

I live in the North of England, farm sheep here, and talk to a lot of farmers. 

I even bred NoE Mules myself when I first came up.

And I live and farm with a third generation local farmer.  Won prizes for his Hexhamshire Blackie ewe lambs and their Mule ewe lamb offspring in his earlier days; now produces top quality fat lambs with a commercial white sheep flock using a breeding programme that requires re-seeding from Mule crosses every fourth generation or so.

It may be written, but that does not make it so

I've said that there seems to be regional variation and I don't presume to tell you what terms are used in your area.  I feel I can speak with authority about the terms used in my own area

[SallyintNorth]

R.E The performance recording. . . . . . without wanting to open a can of worms, or upset anyone too much. . . . the fact that you have mentioned them being bred to produce 'well marked' offspring, kind of supports my point. I've never seen how the markings or indeed 'bonny heid' on a ewe could have any bearing on its commercial usefulness.

I did explain this upthread but I can forgive you for not taking it in on first pass!  It has taken me years to work it all out.

Yes there are lots of colours on skin on legs and faces.  These come traditionally in the north of England from a bit of Teeswater, which makes them a bit more hardy and puts the striking brown-and-white markings on the Mules' faces.  Such tups are sometimes called 'Crossing Leicesters' - they're registered and purebred  but would not be used for breeding Blue-faced Leicesters for breeding more Blue-faced Leicesters .  Buyers of Mules look for the marked faces on the Mules, because they will be that little bit more hardy.

Buyers of BFL tups for fathering Mules look for indications that he will put good markings on his daughters' faces... spotty legs used to be the clue, when it was still de rigeur to have a proper blue face even in a Crossing Leicester, but these days most Mule-breeding areas know all about it and Crossing Leicesters are more likely to have brownish or even brown-blotched faces.

So that is why they look for 'bonny heids' - it indicates that touch of Teeswater in the father, which is desirable as it confers extra hardiness and a better fleece for the job.

However, in recent years, some breeders have realised that a touch of Kerry Hill gives extremely well-defined facial markings too, so there is starting to be some KH in some of the Crossing Leicesters.  Given that the Kerry Hill is a hardy hill sheep with a good fleece, it's possible that it's just as good (or maybe even better) as the conventional Teeswater as the 'bit of foreign' in the Crossing Leicester.   I haven't enough experience of Mules produced by such tups to comment.

[SallyintNorth]

As for 1000's of years of knowledge (and I think it may be closer to 100's?)

I was meaning the combined experience embodied in the established flocks.

There are a hell of a lot of knowledgeable breeders out there, breeding useful stock, however, at the end of the day, a lot of folk 'just do what the old man did'....... and breed for a 'look'.

For the reasons given above.

Having lived and worked with a third generation upland farmer for five years now, I am in awe of the amount of knowledge, experience and wisdom he brings to farming this land.  Frequently I will ask for the reasons for making a particular decision, eager to learn, and he may be unable to articulate it.  It's not the type of knowledge that is used to being expressed in words, it's more fundamental.  Some things I am still trying to work out, others I have fathomed after many months or years!

If all the knowledge in all of the heads and beings of all of the North of England upland farmers were extracted and written up in Wikipedia, it would not enable a person without experience to make correct decisions about farming a North of England upland farm. 

There's something about being of the land and livestock, a part of it, having lived and breathed it your whole life and your father before you, that confers an understanding and a wisdom which is beyond verbal explanation.

So when you see a farmer 'doing it that way because it's always been done that way' and unable to articulate a rationale for it - don't make the mistake of assuming that therefore there is no rationale for it.

By all means try doing it another way - but my expectation (and experience!   ) is that more times than not, over a period of years, you'll discover just why it was that it's always been done that way!  lol

[SallyintNorth]

I don't deny that the hill ewes are bloody good at their job, but I wouldn't touch a leicester with a barge pole!!!

Well no, no-one would that isn't breeding Mules or breeding Leicesters, unless they're on good sheltered ground.

There are far far far better composites out there now, which combine similar genetics (in terms of principle) but are a true breeding type, which can be bred as a closed flock and hence genetically improved on 'on farm'. That's what I was actually referring to - the ability to improve the breed itself, rather than improve the breeds used to create the x-breed and hope it all falls into place in the offspring. . . . does that make any sense?

It's a view and can be argued for.  As can the argument for predictable hybrids which confer hybrid vigour. 

And one problem with a homogenous breeding policy is that it has no use for the hill and moorland, whereas the three-tier programme makes good use of the poorer higher ground. 

We find we need to bring in the Mules again every fourth generation or so to reinvigorate our white commercial (Texel type) ewes.  Pure breeding depletes vigour over many generations; most longstanding pedigree flocks of any breed of any species bring in a touch of foreign from time to time .

[SallyintNorth]

The cattle equivalent of the NoE Mule is the Blue Grey.  Mum is a Galloway - hardy, thrifty - and Dad a Whitebred Shorthorn.

We run Blue Greys on our 'fell' (rough higher ground.)  They're expensive to buy because everyone has the same need these days, they're in environmental schemes which mean they need a hardy, thrifty cow that can produce a good calf off poor ground with just a little hay through winter. 

The Blue Grey is superb at this job.

Because they are becoming more and more expensive, we've been looking at alternatives to replace ours as they near the end of their productive lives. 

One alternative that is gaining ground, partly because it's regarded as a native animal but is a pure breed and therefore can be used on schemes that require registered animals, is the Luing.  Originally a hybrid between the Highland cow and the Shorthorn bull, but now evolved into a breed that breeds true.

Good heifers fetch good money, because they can be used in the schemes (and you get more money for registered animals in some of them), but the males and the beef calves off them don't fetch anything like what the Blue Greys can do.

Hybrid vigour

So we're going to bite the bullet and buy more Blue Greys.

If they're as good as the ones we have now, they'll pay for themselves twice over just in terms of production, let alone in terms of the income from the environmental schemes.  And once they're established they cost practically nothing to run.

[Tim W]

Whatever the genetic pros & cons of mules(argued above) the other big problem is that people often insist on buying them at large sheep sales/fairs where you have an increased chance of buying in some wonderful new disease ---it's like being in an aeroplane....lots of animals in a confined space = great way to spread bugs

New footrot strains
Resistant worms
Orf
MV
CLA
OJD etc

(A survey of rams sold at MV accredited sales a few years back showed that 20% of them had CLA---that's from breeders who are aware of and adhere to a disease control plan.)

[Me]

I've said that there seems to be regional variation and I don't presume to tell you what terms are used in your area.  I feel I can speak with authority about the terms used in my own area

Fairdoos

[Keepers]

I didn't realise this thread was a mule vs composite/rest of the world thread 

I have welsh mules, I breed Charmoise sheep and I have a few exlanas and my own crossbreds that I have bred

The mules are milky, motherly, easy to handle, cheap to pick up, last a few years and then easy to sell as culls, they do the job for the farmers who like them

The reason why they are not the do all and end all for me is that the ones I have suffer from poor feet, I would love to breed this out of the mule flock but I cannot, simply because I will cull a mule, then go and buy a mule and its a gamble whether it has the same problems again or more different problems.

However I rent all of my land, and the landlords have kindly let me know that they do not want wooly fences or bits of wool lying around, hence the search is on for a wooly breed that fits in 

In the mean time the majority of the people who come and buy my tups know what a mule is, they know what she produces and they know what a good lamb out of a mule looks like vs a bad lamb out of a mule

Most people who look at a breed that they do not know very well, cannot relate with how that lamb is/could be, so if I want to sell my quality grass fed tups and people want to look at lambs by them, they need a ewe breed they can relate to

So whilst I am breeding my own crossbred, using strict criteria and culling things, I need a small group of mules to run along side, running on a less strict culling routine, so three notches and out, rather than one with my charmoise, each time I have to pick up a bad foot its a notch, prolapse/bad udder/bad mother/reject lamb is straight out

The mules milked fantastically, they did well off a haylage diet whilst lambing, have not had any limp since the winter (tough wood) and the lambs were away from June, yes I know of mule breeders who select for a pretty face (mule showing I think has a part to play) but if they can do the job required by the person who bought them and that person is happy with them, who are we to tell them to change breed?

Also if you go for the mules out of white welsh mountain ewes they dont come out with markings, so are never bred for a pretty face, my ones out of beaulahs are shocking, pretty faces r us, dont mind us about the bad feet...

I do not like the fact that I cannot select for individual recorded traits when having mules, but if I buy them in as ewe lambs at £80, breed for two years and then sell for £110, and they produce cracking lambs on a low input system which help to sell my rams then I can't really complain (much)

However the OP asked what a mule was, not why I had any and please also compare to other breeds that I may have and that other people may keep, so I kept it simple 

P.S There are some pens of lovely welsh mules going at Cirencester sheep fair on the 14th