The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Bionic on July 29, 2015, 12:04:18 pm
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I thought it was a mix of breeds like a mongrel would be to a dog but someone told me that a mule is the result of the terminal sire being a Blue Faced Leicester.
I am spinning a fleece that came from a mule (a nice fleece it is too) but I cannot see that this farmer would be using a BFL so I am confused.
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A mule is a BFL crossed onto another to produce a milky ewe made for prime lamb production
You get welsh mules, north country mules, scotch mules etc, each one of those has a BFL as the dad and a hardy breed as the mum, dad provides the size, length and lambing %, mum provides the hardiness, mothering ability and longevity
I have welsh mules which are a cross between the BFL and a kerry hill or a welsh mountain ewe
North country mules are usually a cross between the BFL and the swaledale
and the Scotch mules are a cross between the BFL and the Blackie
There are also other types of mules out there
Most farmers who have mules wont actually have a BFL tup, the mules are bought at sales or off farm or bred but mostly bought in, they are put to a terminal ram to produce meat lambs that tend to grow fast and are easily marketed
This is a good website which explains it better than I probly have http://www.muleflock.com/muleflock_002.htm (http://www.muleflock.com/muleflock_002.htm)
Hope that helps :wave:
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Great information :thumbsup:
Many thanks Keepers
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I had wondered this too, thanks for the info :)
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Keepers - do you know how the Kerry Hill Welsh mules compare to a NE Mule?
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Counter-intuitively, the BFL tups are often working on the hill, because they are tupping the hill ewes. The mule ewe lamb and shearling offspring are then purchased by farms lower down, where they produce fat lambs and often also cross ewes for breeding. (We cross them to Texel, Beltex and Charollais, and keep strong ewe lambs on as breeders; others on better ground may also cross them to Suffolks for the same purpose.)
Excuse for unsolicited pictures :)
First pic is Rosie Mule, my oldest North of England Mule. Mum was a Swaledale, Dad a BFL, bred on the Northumberland moorland farm where yes, we did keep BFL tups because our main product was mule ewe lambs. We had to choose tups with less than very fine fleece, and they did need to be brought in if the weather got very bad. As we tupped through November for April lambs, this could be inconvenient ::) :gloomy: :cold:
(The other sheep in the pic is Chad, my Shetland tup - nobbut a lamb at this time, and yes he really was that much smaller than Rosie, and yes he did tup her successfully :) )
Second pic is a batch of North of England Mules we bought in last year at 2- and 3-crop because on this upland farm we don't keep hill breeds so don't produce our own Mules. Our neighbour does, mind - he buys draft Swale ewes, getting too old for life on the hill, and tups them to a BFL for a mule ewe lamb crop. We did buy a pen off him a few years back and still have a good few of them here.
Third pic is the other type of North of England Mule - Mum is a Hexhamshire / Northumberland Blackface. Bigger, stronger sheep than the Swaley Mules, give a better carcase and 'skin' (fleece) than her too, but aren't as thrifty, hardy nor as roomy as the Swaley Mule. And often have less biddable temperaments too.
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Lovely sheep Sally :wave:
Here are some welsh mule shearlings of mine, they are out of a Bealah speckle face and by a BFL
I have never had grass that good since :'(
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Lovely pics from both of you :thumbsup:
The fleece that started this question was given to me by my neighbouring farmer. It was the only 'black' fleece he had and said the wool board wouldn't want it. In fact its not black at all but a lovely mix of grey and brown.
I finished spinning it this afternoon and then decided to dye it. Its currently cooling in the Burco boiler. The different colours in the fleece make for an interesting colouring when its dyed. I will post some pics in the craft section when its been rinsed and dried.
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Black? Mum must've been a Black Welsh Mountain then, I think. You always hear that most breeds give white on first cross (unless Dad was a black BFL, which would be, errr... 'uncommon' :-J)
Yes, it should be gorgeous overdyed! :thumbsup:
I'll talk more about black fleeces in the wool sheet otherwhere and link back... gotta go right now.
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Nice sheep, Keepers :thumbsup:
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Black? Mum must've been a Black Welsh Mountain then, I think. You always hear that most breeds give white on first cross (unless Dad was a black BFL, which would be, errr... 'uncommon' :-J )
Yes, it should be gorgeous overdyed! :thumbsup:
Well the farmer called it black but it certainly wasn't what I would call black. I guess he just meant something other than white. He doesn't have any Welsh Blacks himself. all of his are white with black legs. I will have to have a closer look to see if I can tell exactly what they are. Anyway, I am hoping he keeps her because he will probably give me the fleece again next year ;D
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One or two of my welsh mules out of the beulah have brown markings within the fleece,
one of them is entirely "brown bottomed" :roflanim: we call her "Brown bottomed girl" she makes the world go round ;)
So could just be a funny coloured mule :) or a BFL tup had a smiggen of coloured gene in him and its only come out in the one ewe, seeing as more people are using the modern BFL tups these days with markings on them it may be possible :thinking:
My mules out of the white welsh mountain are very creamy and white with a much fuller, longer fleece
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This is the sheep stratification system, possible because of the many sheep breeds we have in the UK, able to cope with their local conditions however unusual or challenging. It depends on the initial use of very poor grazing to support the mountain ewe and appears to be completely overlooked by the "rewilding" gang. It's worked well for centuries and given us the upland landscape we presently have. Wolves and lynx disappeared about a thousand years before it started!
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or a BFL tup had a smiggen of coloured gene in him and its only come out in the one ewe, seeing as more people are using the modern BFL tups these days with markings on them it may be possible :thinking:
Skin colour and fleece colour are different genes, I think.
BFL is recessive for black fleece and there are very very few black genes about - they all get ringed and sent away. You don't get patchy colours in BFL fleeces; they're either all white or all dark grey-to-black.
Yes there are lots of colours on skin on legs and faces. These come traditionally in the north of England from a bit of Teeswater, which makes them a bit more hardy and puts the striking brown-and-white markings on the Mules' faces. Such tups are sometimes called 'Crossing Leicesters' - they're registered and purebred :innocent: but would not be used for breeding Blue-faced Leicesters for breeding more Blue-faced Leicesters ;). Buyers of Mules look for the marked faces on the Mules, because they will be that little bit more hardy.
Buyers of BFL tups for fathering Mules look for indications that he will put good markings on his daughters' faces... spotty legs used to be the clue, when it was still de rigeur to have a proper blue face even in a Crossing Leicester, but these days most Mule-breeding areas know all about it and Crossing Leicesters are more likely to have brownish or even brown-blotched faces.
In recent years, the Welsh farmers have been using a bit of Kerry Hill to achieve the face markings. It does such a good job on that, that breeders elsewhere have been using Kerry Hill too. It's rather less subtle on the BFL than the Teeswater though, putting KH-type markings on the faces of the Leicesters as well as on their Mule offspring.
I've attached pics of 'True Blue', conventional Crossing Leicesters and the more recent type from the recent Roman Wall Show in Northumberland.
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One or two of my welsh mules out of the beulah have brown markings within the fleece,
one of them is entirely "brown bottomed" :roflanim: we call her "Brown bottomed girl" she makes the world go round ;)
So could just be a funny coloured mule :)
Much more likely, I would think. Love your 'Brown bottomed girl' :roflanim:
Some of our Mules are really quite grey; the grey comes from the Swaledale, not from the BFL. You don't see it when they're in full fleece, but you can see it when the fleece is off - on both the clipped ewe and in the fleece itself.
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Probably been explained in better detail above, but a mule is basically the offspring of any hill breed with either a BFL or a Border Leicester put over them. The idea is that you get the hardiness, mothering ability etc of the hill breed and the milkiness and prolificy of the BFL/Border.
They can be real good ewes and I grew up with my old man running Welsh Mules. However, unfortunately they can also be fairly crap! Bred for 'bony heads' and other daft things, and as they are a x-bred, bought in ewe, they lack the performance recording of other breeds, for the most part.
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True. Folks go on about "hybrid vigour" but if you cross a poor quality ewe with a poor quality ram you get a poor quality hybrid.
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a mule is basically the offspring of any hill breed with either a BFL or a Border Leicester put over them.
It's maybe different in Ireland, but hereabouts we call them 'half-breds' if dad is a Border Leicester, and 'mules' only if Dad is a Blue-faced (or Crossing ;)) Leicester.
And then there's Masham, where Dad is a Teeswater or Wensleydale.
They can be real good ewes and I grew up with my old man running Welsh Mules. However, unfortunately they can also be fairly crap! Bred for 'bony heads' and other daft things, and as they are a x-bred, bought in ewe, they lack the performance recording of other breeds, for the most part.
The hill sheep flocks that mother them and the crossing Leicesters that father them have been bred for many hundreds of generations now, selecting for the production of well-marked and well-performing Mule ewe offspring. So whilst yes there may not be EBVs, there are thousands of years of knowledge and experience and selection in the breeding. If you buy North of England Mule gimmers from an established breeder, you won't go far wrong.
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A mule does not have to be sired by a blue. PL is correct.
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A mule does not have to be sired by a blue. PL is correct.
Maybe the terminology is used differently in different regions. A Mule is the daughter of a BFL dad hereabouts, and not any other tup. And that's the definition in the NSA Sheep Book too.
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It may be written, but that does not make it so ;)
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a mule is basically the offspring of any hill breed with either a BFL or a Border Leicester put over them.
It's maybe different in Ireland, but hereabouts we call them 'half-breds' if dad is a Border Leicester, and 'mules' only if Dad is a Blue-faced (or Crossing ;)) Leicester.
And then there's Masham, where Dad is a Teeswater or Wensleydale.
They can be real good ewes and I grew up with my old man running Welsh Mules. However, unfortunately they can also be fairly crap! Bred for 'bony heads' and other daft things, and as they are a x-bred, bought in ewe, they lack the performance recording of other breeds, for the most part.
The hill sheep flocks that mother them and the crossing Leicesters that father them have been bred for many hundreds of generations now, selecting for the production of well-marked and well-performing Mule ewe offspring. So whilst yes there may not be EBVs, there are thousands of years of knowledge and experience and selection in the breeding. If you buy North of England Mule gimmers from an established breeder, you won't go far wrong.
Hello Sally!
I'm not in Ireland, I'm in Wales, and I believe I am correct in what I say r.e Borders/Blues. Possibly a local thing?
R.E The performance recording. . . . . . without wanting to open a can of worms, or upset anyone too much. . . . the fact that you have mentioned them being bred to produce 'well marked' offspring, kind of supports my point. I've never seen how the markings or indeed 'bonny heid' on a ewe could have any bearing on its commercial usefulness.
As for 1000's of years of knowledge (and I think it may be closer to 100's?). . . . i'll take it with a pinch of salt. There are a hell of a lot of knowledgeable breeders out there, breeding useful stock, however, at the end of the day, a lot of folk 'just do what the old man did'....... and breed for a 'look'. I don't deny that the hill ewes are bloody good at their job, but I wouldn't touch a leicester with a barge pole!!! There are far far far better composites out there now, which combine similar genetics (in terms of principle) but are a true breeding type, which can be bred as a closed flock and hence genetically improved on 'on farm'. That's what I was actually referring to - the ability to improve the breed itself, rather than improve the breeds used to create the x-breed and hope it all falls into place in the offspring. . . . does that make any sense?
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A Mule is the daughter of a BFL dad hereabouts, and not any other tup.
I live in the North of England, farm sheep here, and talk to a lot of farmers.
I even bred NoE Mules myself when I first came up.
And I live and farm with a third generation local farmer. Won prizes for his Hexhamshire Blackie ewe lambs and their Mule ewe lamb offspring in his earlier days; now produces top quality fat lambs with a commercial white sheep flock using a breeding programme that requires re-seeding from Mule crosses every fourth generation or so.
It may be written, but that does not make it so ;)
I've said that there seems to be regional variation and I don't presume to tell you what terms are used in your area. I feel I can speak with authority about the terms used in my own area ;)
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R.E The performance recording. . . . . . without wanting to open a can of worms, or upset anyone too much. . . . the fact that you have mentioned them being bred to produce 'well marked' offspring, kind of supports my point. I've never seen how the markings or indeed 'bonny heid' on a ewe could have any bearing on its commercial usefulness.
I did explain this upthread but I can forgive you for not taking it in on first pass! It has taken me years to work it all out.
Yes there are lots of colours on skin on legs and faces. These come traditionally in the north of England from a bit of Teeswater, which makes them a bit more hardy and puts the striking brown-and-white markings on the Mules' faces. Such tups are sometimes called 'Crossing Leicesters' - they're registered and purebred :innocent: but would not be used for breeding Blue-faced Leicesters for breeding more Blue-faced Leicesters ;). Buyers of Mules look for the marked faces on the Mules, because they will be that little bit more hardy.
Buyers of BFL tups for fathering Mules look for indications that he will put good markings on his daughters' faces... spotty legs used to be the clue, when it was still de rigeur to have a proper blue face even in a Crossing Leicester, but these days most Mule-breeding areas know all about it and Crossing Leicesters are more likely to have brownish or even brown-blotched faces.
So that is why they look for 'bonny heids' - it indicates that touch of Teeswater in the father, which is desirable as it confers extra hardiness and a better fleece for the job.
However, in recent years, some breeders have realised that a touch of Kerry Hill gives extremely well-defined facial markings too, so there is starting to be some KH in some of the Crossing Leicesters. Given that the Kerry Hill is a hardy hill sheep with a good fleece, it's possible that it's just as good (or maybe even better) as the conventional Teeswater as the 'bit of foreign' in the Crossing Leicester. I haven't enough experience of Mules produced by such tups to comment.
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As for 1000's of years of knowledge (and I think it may be closer to 100's?)
I was meaning the combined experience embodied in the established flocks.
There are a hell of a lot of knowledgeable breeders out there, breeding useful stock, however, at the end of the day, a lot of folk 'just do what the old man did'....... and breed for a 'look'.
For the reasons given above.
Having lived and worked with a third generation upland farmer for five years now, I am in awe of the amount of knowledge, experience and wisdom he brings to farming this land. Frequently I will ask for the reasons for making a particular decision, eager to learn, and he may be unable to articulate it. It's not the type of knowledge that is used to being expressed in words, it's more fundamental. Some things I am still trying to work out, others I have fathomed after many months or years!
If all the knowledge in all of the heads and beings of all of the North of England upland farmers were extracted and written up in Wikipedia, it would not enable a person without experience to make correct decisions about farming a North of England upland farm.
There's something about being of the land and livestock, a part of it, having lived and breathed it your whole life and your father before you, that confers an understanding and a wisdom which is beyond verbal explanation.
So when you see a farmer 'doing it that way because it's always been done that way' and unable to articulate a rationale for it - don't make the mistake of assuming that therefore there is no rationale for it.
By all means try doing it another way - but my expectation (and experience! :D) is that more times than not, over a period of years, you'll discover just why it was that it's always been done that way! lol
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I don't deny that the hill ewes are bloody good at their job, but I wouldn't touch a leicester with a barge pole!!!
Well no, no-one would that isn't breeding Mules or breeding Leicesters, unless they're on good sheltered ground.
There are far far far better composites out there now, which combine similar genetics (in terms of principle) but are a true breeding type, which can be bred as a closed flock and hence genetically improved on 'on farm'. That's what I was actually referring to - the ability to improve the breed itself, rather than improve the breeds used to create the x-breed and hope it all falls into place in the offspring. . . . does that make any sense?
It's a view and can be argued for. As can the argument for predictable hybrids which confer hybrid vigour. ;)
And one problem with a homogenous breeding policy is that it has no use for the hill and moorland, whereas the three-tier programme makes good use of the poorer higher ground.
We find we need to bring in the Mules again every fourth generation or so to reinvigorate our white commercial (Texel type) ewes. Pure breeding depletes vigour over many generations; most longstanding pedigree flocks of any breed of any species bring in a touch of foreign from time to time ;).
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The cattle equivalent of the NoE Mule is the Blue Grey. Mum is a Galloway - hardy, thrifty - and Dad a Whitebred Shorthorn.
We run Blue Greys on our 'fell' (rough higher ground.) They're expensive to buy because everyone has the same need these days, they're in environmental schemes which mean they need a hardy, thrifty cow that can produce a good calf off poor ground with just a little hay through winter.
The Blue Grey is superb at this job.
Because they are becoming more and more expensive, we've been looking at alternatives to replace ours as they near the end of their productive lives.
One alternative that is gaining ground, partly because it's regarded as a native animal but is a pure breed and therefore can be used on schemes that require registered animals, is the Luing. Originally a hybrid between the Highland cow and the Shorthorn bull, but now evolved into a breed that breeds true.
Good heifers fetch good money, because they can be used in the schemes (and you get more money for registered animals in some of them), but the males and the beef calves off them don't fetch anything like what the Blue Greys can do.
Hybrid vigour ;)
So we're going to bite the bullet and buy more Blue Greys.
If they're as good as the ones we have now, they'll pay for themselves twice over just in terms of production, let alone in terms of the income from the environmental schemes. And once they're established they cost practically nothing to run.
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Whatever the genetic pros & cons of mules(argued above) the other big problem is that people often insist on buying them at large sheep sales/fairs where you have an increased chance of buying in some wonderful new disease ---it's like being in an aeroplane....lots of animals in a confined space = great way to spread bugs
New footrot strains
Resistant worms
Orf
MV
CLA
OJD etc
(A survey of rams sold at MV accredited sales a few years back showed that 20% of them had CLA---that's from breeders who are aware of and adhere to a disease control plan.)
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I've said that there seems to be regional variation and I don't presume to tell you what terms are used in your area. I feel I can speak with authority about the terms used in my own area ;)
Fairdoos
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I didn't realise this thread was a mule vs composite/rest of the world thread ;)
I have welsh mules, I breed Charmoise sheep and I have a few exlanas and my own crossbreds that I have bred
The mules are milky, motherly, easy to handle, cheap to pick up, last a few years and then easy to sell as culls, they do the job for the farmers who like them
The reason why they are not the do all and end all for me is that the ones I have suffer from poor feet, I would love to breed this out of the mule flock but I cannot, simply because I will cull a mule, then go and buy a mule and its a gamble whether it has the same problems again or more different problems.
However I rent all of my land, and the landlords have kindly let me know that they do not want wooly fences or bits of wool lying around, hence the search is on for a wooly breed that fits in :thinking:
In the mean time the majority of the people who come and buy my tups know what a mule is, they know what she produces and they know what a good lamb out of a mule looks like vs a bad lamb out of a mule
Most people who look at a breed that they do not know very well, cannot relate with how that lamb is/could be, so if I want to sell my quality grass fed tups and people want to look at lambs by them, they need a ewe breed they can relate to
So whilst I am breeding my own crossbred, using strict criteria and culling things, I need a small group of mules to run along side, running on a less strict culling routine, so three notches and out, rather than one with my charmoise, each time I have to pick up a bad foot its a notch, prolapse/bad udder/bad mother/reject lamb is straight out
The mules milked fantastically, they did well off a haylage diet whilst lambing, have not had any limp since the winter (tough wood) and the lambs were away from June, yes I know of mule breeders who select for a pretty face (mule showing I think has a part to play) but if they can do the job required by the person who bought them and that person is happy with them, who are we to tell them to change breed?
Also if you go for the mules out of white welsh mountain ewes they dont come out with markings, so are never bred for a pretty face, my ones out of beaulahs are shocking, pretty faces r us, dont mind us about the bad feet...
I do not like the fact that I cannot select for individual recorded traits when having mules, but if I buy them in as ewe lambs at £80, breed for two years and then sell for £110, and they produce cracking lambs on a low input system which help to sell my rams then I can't really complain (much)
However the OP asked what a mule was, not why I had any and please also compare to other breeds that I may have and that other people may keep, so I kept it simple :thumbsup:
P.S There are some pens of lovely welsh mules going at Cirencester sheep fair on the 14th ;)
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And disease isn't spread at sales where it's purebred animals being sold ???
I do understand the desire to run a closed flock, only bringing in tups when necessary, especially if there are transmissible diseases and resistant worms in your area.
When Sue & I moved up to the moorland farm, we'd expected that we'd want to be organic. Because our product was Mule ewe lambs, we did only need to think about bringing in tups, and could (and did) breed our own replacement Swaledale ewes. We also had a Mule flock of our own and kept a couple of Texel/Beltex tups for them. The BFL and terminal tups could stay as long as they could work, as they were never going to be put onto their daughters, it was only the Swaledale tups we had to be more careful about - we could only keep them for three seasons. (In their third season we kept them away from the gimmers.)
However, there was, unsurprisingly I suppose, no market at all for organic Mule ewe lambs, because organic systems generally try to run closed flocks. We could have tried to find someone who wanted to use Mules and be organic, and had a setup where they only bought from us, but by the time we'd realised we'd have to have derogations for flukicides etc, the whole organic principle was being so diluted we felt it pointless to go for certification.
Ironically, we found that we ended up selling the bulk of our Mule ewe lamb crop to the same farm (direct farm to farm sale, albeit initially arranged through the auction company) year after year after year - nice to know they liked them :)
You will find at the big sales up here that the bulk of the Mule gimmers from established producers are bought by the same buyers year after year after year, and the same for draft ewes too. Going through the auction ring ensures that the price is fair to both. When we wanted a pen of draft Mules from a specific buyer last year we had to meet the usual buyer and agree with him which pen we would have! He bid us up to the same price he'd bought the previous pen for, so all was fair for all :)
Until very recently a lot of the marts up here used for the Mule sales, and the hill sheep too, were outdoors, many of them earth pens. Defra don't like that, want covered pens with washable cement - but there's an argument to say that less disease gets transmitted in open air ;). Of course the worry was FMD, so the earth pens were a risk. And we get a lot of rain up here ::) so overall I guess rooves are a good thing, on balance.
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very interesting to read about your system and your reason for keeping, and your experiences with, Mules, Keepers. :thumbsup:
I don't suppose Sally minds us nattering on about all things Mule. It's normal for conversations to expand, I think, where the subject matter is of interest to several opinionated people ;).
In fairness I have to say we do get some sore feet in the Mules, not to an enormous extent but some. In general, though, the Mule is such a good eater and attentive mother that they keep going and don't lose condition if they have sore feet, where a Texel ewe might just lie down and say it's all too difficult. (Makes the latter easier to catch, is the only benefit! lol.) And as you say, you can't select for good feet in bought-in sheep, only by finding producers whose sheep do better for you and then sticking with them.
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Porterlauren and others in areas where a Mule may be the daughter of a Border Leicester or a BFL - so are there Border Leicesters about in your area? I don't know of any hereabouts, though I am aware of a few flocks in Scotland. It's a Rare Breed, in the 'minority' category, which means there must 1500-3000 of them somewhere! Perhaps they're (nearly) all in Wales?
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I didn't expect my post to recieve such attention. Having said that its very interesting.
I am in South West'ish Wales and it seems that, at least my local farmers here, are using a BFL terminal sire to get the chunky lambs that they send off. Fleece isn't a consideration for them as the WMB takes all their whites. Its only this odd one that came my way and very grateful for it I am too.
The dyed yarn is nearly dry so I will post some pics in the craft section later today.
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In fairness I have to say we do get some sore feet in the Mules, not to an enormous extent but some. In general, though, the Mule is such a good eater and attentive mother that they keep going and don't lose condition if they have sore feet, where a Texel ewe might just lie down and say it's all too difficult. (Makes the latter easier to catch, is the only benefit! lol.) And as you say, you can't select for good feet in bought-in sheep, only by finding producers whose sheep do better for you and then sticking with them.
This is very true
I find that my texel cross ewes do not get bad feet like the mules do :fc:
I suppose if the mule ewe was a pure breed or a stabilized composite, and everyone could run closed flocks of mules, mules breeding more mules tupped by mules, then the breed could be bred for good feet, lambing issues, etc
I often do wonder why no one has attempted to stabilize and then improve (within each persons flock) the mule, it can't be just because of the lack of hybrid viguor as everyone keeps pure breds and lleyns, easycares, romneys etc without complaining that they lack hybrid vigour ???
Another big issue for me, is that I run a low input forage only system, some mules do well on this, many do not, there is no way of telling which would do well just by looking at them, or when I buy a pen, and I have yet to hear of a breeder which breeds mules outside with no cake and only forage, because many are bred up in the hills I suppose, but I know of ones bred on downland which are still fed
Either way, I have a self replacing flock of crossbreds etc and still am searching for a hardy maternal breed to add to it, and then may always run a separate little group of mules for people to look at and relate to the lambs and also to produce a very early crop, still run just off grass like everything else :)
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Porterlauren and others in areas where a Mule may be the daughter of a Border Leicester or a BFL - so are there Border Leicesters about in your area? I don't know of any hereabouts, though I am aware of a few flocks in Scotland. It's a Rare Breed, in the 'minority' category, which means there must 1500-3000 of them somewhere! Perhaps they're (nearly) all in Wales?
At the Thame sheep fair, there are often half breds going through the sale ring, where they come from I have no clue
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I often do wonder why no one has attempted to stabilize and then improve (within each persons flock) the mule, it can't be just because of the lack of hybrid viguor as everyone keeps pure breds and lleyns, easycares, romneys etc without complaining that they lack hybrid vigour ???
Do they though? I know of more farmers who've tried Lleyns and Romneys and gone away from them, or use them as one of the several breeds in a multi-generation breeding programme, than I do farmers who keep and use 'em pure.
And in commercial Texel and Beltex breeding, there is a constant influx of 'foreign' blood to prevent stagnation of the sheep. Mostly literally foreign - bringing in Texels from other countries; the introduction of the Dutch Texel a few years back invigorated the tups and their offspring but they're needing another dose of foreign now...
And if you read my post about Luing and Blue Grey cattle, I think you will see why no-one is trying to produce a self-replicating Mule.
Not to mention the original reason we have them - only the hill type sheep can 'do' on the hills and moorlands, and producing the Mule gives them a profitable crop.
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I do agree that Mules generally need feed in the latter stages of pregnancy, at least hereabouts she does. Dad being a BFL, the Mule is a prolific mother, putting her all into her multiple lambs and the milk for them. She's always put to a larger tup than she is, usually a strapping heavily-muscled terminal fella, so it's hardly surprising she needs a bit of extra to help her grow, birth and feed her mahoosive litter. ;)
Not really fair to compare that to a pure breed sheep being put to the same breed tup as she is.
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I often do wonder why no one has attempted to stabilize and then improve (within each persons flock) the mule, it can't be just because of the lack of hybrid viguor as everyone keeps pure breds and lleyns, easycares, romneys etc without complaining that they lack hybrid vigour ???
Do they though? I know of more farmers who've tried Lleyns and Romneys and gone away from them, or use them as one of the several breeds in a multi-generation breeding programme, than I do farmers who keep and use 'em pure.
Not to mention the original reason we have them - only the hill type sheep can 'do' on the hills and moorlands, and producing the Mule gives them a profitable crop.
Yes I also know of people who have had lleyns (for example) and gone back to the mule, however I'm pretty sure that more and more people have flocks of lleyns, romneys etc than they had a few years ago? I may be wrong...
many of the people who buy my tups can relate to what a mule cross lamb looks like, however the vast majority of them now have a breed and once had a mule and came away, in order to improve the genetics within the flock
I did not mean breeding them pure all the time, as most flocks breed pure for replacements and then cross breed for meat lambs :)
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Porterlauren and others in areas where a Mule may be the daughter of a Border Leicester or a BFL - so are there Border Leicesters about in your area? I don't know of any hereabouts, though I am aware of a few flocks in Scotland. It's a Rare Breed, in the 'minority' category, which means there must 1500-3000 of them somewhere! Perhaps they're (nearly) all in Wales?
None around here :roflanim:
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I do agree that Mules generally need feed in the latter stages of pregnancy, at least hereabouts she does. Dad being a BFL, the Mule is a prolific mother, putting her all into her multiple lambs and the milk for them. She's always put to a larger tup than she is, usually a strapping heavily-muscled terminal fella, so it's hardly surprising she needs a bit of extra to help her grow, birth and feed her mahoosive litter. ;)
Not really fair to compare that to a pure breed sheep being put to the same breed tup as she is.
I was not comparing a mule having a terminal lamb to a breed being bred pure :)
Other smaller ewe breeds are put to the same tups that a mule is
The Lleyn? is smaller than a mule and is put to the same tups, the Highlander, welsh ewes, the hill Cheviots, easycares are all smaller than a north of england mule and are put to the same tups :)
However yes they may produce a smaller lamb as they are a smaller ewe, the mule may produce a bigger faster growing lamb as they are a bigger ewe, so its a difficult one
There is a flock of 350 north of england mule ewes an hour away from me, they do FEC's, they have not wormed the flock for 3 years now as had no reason to, they mules are lambed outside and thrive off just haylage over lambing and they produce lambs that are ready year round (fairly slow growing lambs tbh)
However they know that they have had these mules for a whilst now and the likelihood of finding mules which do the same job as these is slim, so therefore they are now crossing them all with lleyn tups and keeping the ewe lambs, any which dont thrive on the system are getting culled and they can finally breed for good feet
As feet is a big issue on the farm
So if I had mules like they had (not the bad feet ones) I would be happy :) but to find those ones is difficult and I wouldnt know where to start or how?
But yes mules will always be made as the little hill ewes will get put to BFL tups to produce them, and they are hard working good ewes which do the job for most people!
I suppose most people perhaps do not put as high a cost on looking after poor feet/feeding cake etc so therefore those issues arent such big issues at all? just is normal sheep care, and the mule carries on doing her job and doing it well and keeps everyone happy :)
Its when people want breeds who have less incidences of these things by selective breeding and breeding/culling for key individual traits that they move away from the mule
I am a big advocate for low input/forage and grass based/selective breeding type of sheep keeping, and I think in this current climate that it could be the way forwards for many people
However I am not going to go around and tell people to swap the mules/higher input sheep for something else, as they may be perfect for who loves them and for who keeps them and they may suit that system just fine, if I could breed for good feet/forage based within the mules then I would :) they are easy to handle sheep and I find them good mothers and very milky :)
I will probably always keep a few of them :thumbsup: however with culling them off for feet I will most likely have to buy them in again each year, I am thinking of trying a different type of mule though maybe instead of welsh ones, many many people tup mules as ewe lambs so want to see what lambs out of ewe lambs look like, last year I bought welsh mule ewe lambs, this year I might go for something different :)
Everyones land and systems are different, and there is no such thing as "one fits all" what works for me may not appeal or work for others, and vice versa :thinking:
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Have you ever tried Footvxaxing your mules as they come in?
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Have you ever tried Footvxaxing your mules as they come in?
No I have not tried this? it did cross my mind the other day when I saw it mentioned somewhere :thinking:
How much does it cost per ewe and how effective would it be?
I may need to do some research
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I don't know the answers to your questions, but I believe it is generally very effective. If Defra are to be believed, culling any ewe that gets foot problems after Footvaxing should result in a foot-healthy group. :fc:
Maybe talk to your vet and see what they think
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Here in the Borders, bluehead = mule, border = half bred. Not saying anyone is right or wrong, just how it is here too. The way the bluehead has changed, from the traditional type to the crossing type, as shown in Sally's photos is amazing. Dad was telling me a few weeks ago about when the first crossing type was taken to the society sale at Hexham (where I'm from really, the borders being where I live now), the man wasn't allowed to sell it, so he conducted his own auction in the car park, and it fetched a fortune. Now, the majority of sheep at the sale are that speckeldy pattern, for producing a darker mule. I love a good mule, my best childhood memories are of preparing mules lambs for sale at Bellingham, and then the sale days there, I get very nostalgic whenever I smell bloom dip!
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Hi, I hope this helps.
Welsh Mules are always sired by a Bluefaced Leicester ram, be it the traditional type or the crossing type.
To be eligible for sale in one of the Welsh Mule Society Sales, it has to be a registered Blueface Leicester ram crossed with hill ewes of the Welsh Mountain, Beulah or Welsh Hill Speckledface breeds.
Any other cross is not a recognised Welsh Mule!
However many sheep breeders in Wales cross the Bluefaced Leicester rams onto flocks of unknown breeding and still refer to them as 'Mule'.
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mules will always have a place on some farms, their a plenty of mixed farms (IE 3-400 acres, arable but with grass in the rotation to build soil / control weeds etc) who may have a flock that some years needs to be 50-ewes others grows to 250 then down again, and the mule fits the bill for this perfectly - easy to buy, easy to sell, on the whole most people understand it, and they tend to be pretty flexible on feed - so do well on grass, turnips, grains, anything you have, whereas some breeds that are great for grass only, just run to fat on mixed feeding - thats my expereince of Lleyn and their crosses anyway.
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The only mules I know are the progeny of a mare mated with a male donkey ;D
( not true actually, as Ive recently read a book that explained all about ovine mules and their regional variations)
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Kimbo... :relief:
Am so glad you said the above , I always thought a mule was a horsy animal
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Don't feel bad, I thought Kimbo was a 20st American bare knuckle boxer.
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Don't feel bad, I thought Kimbo was a 20st American bare knuckle boxer.
You mean she isn't?
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No, too many good meals, 21st now ;)
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You don't know how close to the truth you are ;)
( sorry, have to go and chalk up my knuckles now)
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The only mules I know are the progeny of a mare mated with a male donkey ;D
I think the point is that you don't breed an equine mule with an equine mule. Equally you don't breed an ovine mule with an ovine mule. The mule is hardy, easy lambing, an excellent mother and if you ever do have to interfere at lambing time it's because she's got a serious problem.
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We borrowed a BFL 2 years ago and put him to our speckleds, we kept the nicest 6 ewe lambs. Not one has had footrot, we often see them 'biting' their nails and generally giving themselves a pedicure. We had one of the boys for the freezer as they don't make very commercial lambs for market, he tasted good but could see what my butcher meant as the joints are large and the bones are too. Not really a supermarket lamb.
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Just to update this interesting thread with things I've learned and found since.
In Scotland, especially the Borders, the Border Leicester is known as a 'Bred'. He's used on the prevalent hill ewe, which is the Cheviot, so the offspring is 'Half-bred'. :idea:
Officially the offspring of a Bred to a Blackie should be called a Greyface - thus far we haven't identified anyone doing this on purpose and don't know what they call the result. But Longtown Mart categorise a lot of the sheep sold there as Greyface... :thinking:
And I found this description (http://www.welshhalfbredsheep.co.uk/the_breed.htm)on the Welsh Halfbred Sheep Assoc website.