Author Topic: Parelli Natural Horsemanshit  (Read 48956 times)

Rosemary

  • Joined Oct 2007
  • Barry, Angus, Scotland
    • The Accidental Smallholder
Re: Parelli Natural Horsemanshit
« Reply #75 on: September 08, 2010, 09:38:41 pm »
I promised Dan I wouldn't get into this again as I got so wound up last time. So, slurp of tea and off I go.

This is what I find so confusing about these video clips. They are not doctored - I haven't watched the bridling one but I have seen Linda with the Arab and the inept girl on PNH DVDs. They are, however, taken out of context and I do understand why folk get wound up. I didn't watch all the Arab one and haven't watched the DVD for ages, so my recollection is a bit hazy.

The principles of PNH are as everyone here subscribes to. Love, language and leadership - put the relationship first, learn the language and become your horse's leader. If you want to teach your horse to move his hindquarters away, you apply pressure to the part you want to move, say with your fingers - press hair, skin muscle and bone ie increasing pressure - as soon as, really as soon as, your horse tries to response even shifting his weight away, you immediately release the pressure. That is the horse's reward. Then start again, always with the lightest touch. It's about feel and timing and watching your horse to see if he is relaxed or tight. It's what horses do in the field to move each other around. It looks aggressive but if you watch closely, the dominant horse will give the other plenty warning - a look, then ears back then wham! If the horse goes on the look, then no wham. Same principle. But if you never get to the wham, ie convincing the horse that complying with your wishes is a good idea, then the horse learns to play you. I couldn't do anything that would hurt Smokey more than a double barrel from Sheba will, but it's not aggression - that's an egotistical and unprovoked action that humans take. Smokey plays dominance games with me that I never even noticed pre Parelli.

But all horses are different. One of the PNH areas is horsenality - different horses respond in different ways to different cues and you have to read the horse and act appropriately. Say for example I ask Smokey to do something and he doesn't do it, I have to read the situation (as best I can because I don't profess to being a great horseman) and decide from his body language - does he know what to do and is refusing to do it when I ask politely, in which case we'll go fairly quickly to wham, or is he uncertain or confused, in which case I need to ask him a different way or give him plenty of time on the ask phase to think about it and offer something. Even if he offers to do something and it's not really what I wanted, that's OK, he tried and we'll try again.

These are all things I have learned on the Parelli programme. Now maybe I could have learned these things from other sources - I too have read Mark Rashid and Tom Dorrance and seen Monty Roberts and Kelly Marks and Richard Maxwell - and I've learned things from them too. But the basic principles are the same.

No, I don't think you need to hit an animal aggressively, out of anger, fear or your own frustration but you need to use as much force as is necessary to keep yourself and the animal safe. It's like the weapon argument that came round last time - I carry a knife. Is it a weapon or a tool? Depends how you use it.

faith0504

  • Joined Aug 2010
  • Cairngorms
  • take it easy and chill
    • blaemuir cottage
Re: Parelli Natural Horsemanshit
« Reply #76 on: September 08, 2010, 09:44:22 pm »
food for thought

geebee

  • Joined Aug 2010
  • N,E.Fife
Re: Parelli Natural Horsemanshit
« Reply #77 on: September 08, 2010, 10:34:34 pm »
just watched the clip after finding this thread - whaever the 'context' was does not matter. I am horrified that anyone could treat any animal that way. All I could see was a woman who obviously has serious problems, possibly feelings of inadequacy, who knows, hiting a horse for no reason except that she is a bully. The horse wasn't barging it was just standing there. She only spoke to it once ear the end of the clip. I still have no idea what she was trying to do. Anyone who thinks she was in any way justified in lashing that horse should not have any contact with animals.

knightquest

  • Joined May 2010
  • Birmingham
    • Knight Pet Supplies
Re: Parelli Natural Horsemanshit
« Reply #78 on: September 08, 2010, 10:42:46 pm »
I understand what you are saying Rosemary and when you say it, it makes sense.
Either the people responsible for this Pirelli technique need to gain total control over the release of footage or they stop punishing the animals for no reason as they did in the video.

Ian
Ian (me), Diane (my wife) and 4 dogs. Ollie (Lab mix) , Quest (Malamute), Gazer and Boris (Leonbergers)

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
  • Qui? Moi?
Re: Parelli Natural Horsemanshit
« Reply #79 on: September 08, 2010, 11:13:44 pm »
I understand what you are saying Rosemary and when you say it, it makes sense.
Either the people responsible for this Pirelli technique need to gain total control over the release of footage or they stop punishing the animals for no reason as they did in the video.

Ian
Yes, it makes sense when you describe it that way, Rosemary, thanks for posting that, and I've seen you with Smokey, and I just couldn't relate how you treat him to these clips at all, it is so so different. To me you show respect for your animal, as it should be, and these clips don't, but I agree with Ian about clips which are obviously raising concerns about the Parelli method on our forum, so how many other people are seeing these and feeling the same way.  I personally think they would be wise to remove them.
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

Samantha

  • Joined Jul 2010
  • Bristol
    • Merry Meet
Re: Parelli Natural Horsemanshit
« Reply #80 on: September 09, 2010, 09:22:16 am »
Thank you for that Rosemary... I think you do parelli justice with what you say and you sound a very caring and responsible person ... I think most people who are like you will take the good from it .. my concern is those that aren't ... as for the video's .. well i'm not really seeing anything that you have said in them just a bossy overbearing worman that is confusing a horse ... however if you learnt what you have from Parelli then maybe it does work for some people and they can actaully gain useful insights from it, but those videos and many more like them are not serving the cause lol


juliag

  • Joined Nov 2008
  • Wanstrow somerset
Re: Parelli Natural Horsemanshit
« Reply #81 on: September 09, 2010, 10:20:00 am »
Thanks Rosemary and I agree with the others that you express it very well, so now I am going to make the suggestion that actually you do not operate in a Parelli way. I would suggest that you have taken a little bit of everything you have learnt and use it in your own way using common sense and love for your horses. You did get upset about it before defending parelli methods and I am sorry about that but I think it is the natural horsemanshp method you are defending and not necessarily parelli. I dont think Linda Parelli  and her actions can be defended as she clearly has deep issues that go way beyond the dealing of horses.
I understand exactly what you are saying and that is the way I deal with my horses as well, however that does not appear to be the Parelli way which clearly rules through fear and domination...... so to sum it up and I am sure you will tell me if I am wrong I think Rosemary is a fan of natural horsemanship but clearly does not follow the Parellis fear and beating methods.
Am I right?  ???
juliag

Hardfeather

  • Guest
Re: Parelli Natural Horsemanshit
« Reply #82 on: September 09, 2010, 11:50:10 am »
I think Linda Parelli is frightened of horses.

Perhaps if she hadn't met old Pat, and had continued with what she did before, which was ride fairly well, she wouldn't have been in the spotlight today. She has set herself up as a trainer of horses in the Parelli school and I don't think she is up to it.

The priciples of love, language and leadership may well be the the foundation of Parelli Horsemanship, but they are certainly not to the fore in some of their practice.

These clips are causing a furore across the world. All the horse forums are carrying pages and pages of debate and argument about them. As usual, the Parelli stance is that these clips are only part of a whole which should be looked at in its entirety before judgement is passed. They say the context cannot be realised unless the whole story is known.

Many people are incensed that a huge establishment which set itself up as an educational body, does demos, and makes mega-millions on sales of equipment and training aids, can use this sort of example to influence novice horse-trainers, and defend themselves by suggesting that complainants are incapable of understanding their methods.

Personally, I find it disgusting that anyone would treat a horse in some of the ways Linda Parelli does. She would appear to be punishment-oriented in her approach to handling horses, probably because she is afraid of them, and she is very short on encouragement, reward and praise, three things which are essential to successful training of horses. On occasion, she seems to be almost causing the horses to make mistakes so that she can demonstrate her methods of correction to her bemused students. 

Unfortunately, many genuinely caring people who are novice horse-owners and trainers find themselves sucked into the machine which is Parelli, and find their dreams shattered by the reactions of their horses to the over-complicated methodology.

Horses easily become confused if the trainer does not provide simple cues which, by repetition, allow the horse to find the required response. If the horse gives an incorrect response, and is met with a totally different cue, or an increase in pressure, rather than a repeat of the initial cue, he will become stressed and will quickly begin to resist such efforts to train him. Intimidation will only serve to increase his resistance and, in the absence of the ability to flee, the horse may become dangerous as he tries to find relief from the situation.

Horses instinctively lean into physical pressure applied to parts of their body. They have to be taught to yield to physical pressure before they can be expected to respond to the refinement from physical cues into visual or spoken ones. That's why Parelli students find it so difficult to teach a horse to back-up by using a wiggly rope. The horse fails to understand the cue and, instead of helping him with another aid, such as halter pressure or a hand on his face, the student is taught to increase the speed and activity of the wiggle on the rope. When the horse fails to understand that, the student again increases the activity until, at 'phase 4', the rope is being swung so violently that the horse is bound to throw his head up in response. At this point he is hollow-backed, with his head up and, because he finds it difficult to step back in such a position, he is likely to come forward and will probably run right over the student. That is a prime example of a horse becoming dangerous through resistance caused by improper handling.

Linda Parelli seems oblivious to the fact that, in order to step back, a horse needs to be able to drop his head, thereby lifting his spine, and this allows him to use his hind legs comfortably to make the manoeuvre. If he is thus accommodated, he will be more inclined to offer a response to the cue rather than resist. The correct way to introduce a horse to stepping back on cue is to apply firm pressure to his face just where a noseband would lie, and allow him to work out how to respond favourably. This should be done either with the flat hand placed there, or by use of a halter. Throwing wobblies in front of a horse whilst lashing a rope around is no way to teach a horse to back-up or to stand off.

The essence of horse-training is to use only enough pressure to solicit a response without causing resistance. If resistance is met, the handler must immediately acknowledge this by decreasing, or ceasing altogether, the pressure so that greater resistance by the horse is discouraged. When the horse settles, the original cue must be offered again to allow the horse to choose another response which may, this time, be the correct one.

Once the horse has given the correct response to a cue, he must be relieved of the cue, and any pressure associated with it, and praised verbally so that he can immediately associate his response as being correct for that particular cue.

Constantly harassment, without an eye for effort from the horse, and without praise where due, is no way to train a horse to be trustful and compliant.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 11:53:19 am by AengusOg »

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
  • Qui? Moi?
Re: Parelli Natural Horsemanshit
« Reply #83 on: September 09, 2010, 12:04:30 pm »
I spent 3 hours walking in my friend's fields yesterday with 16 horses - TB and TB crosses, all at least 15 hands, with her 3 labs and 5 GSPs and never for a second felt afraid for either myself or my two Brittanys nether of which had ever been that close to a horse in their lives.  It was the first time we had gone to visit her.  They followed us around, they stopped when we stopped, they nuzzled my hair and my arms while Fee and I stood admiring the view, one had a wee chew at my hair, then they sniffed my dogs as they were newcomers to the pack, then they trotted off to play, and then followed us back up the hill and in to the second field.   They stood and watched while all ten dogs hunted for a bit, found and played tug of war with a  dead rabbit, then rolled in fox poo, probably wondering what they were doing.  ;D  And when we whistled all the dogs in to go back to the house, they went off to graze.  I was totally enthralled by their calmness and lack of fear of me, a total stranger, and of my two strange dogs.  To me that is the test of real horsewomanship.
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

 

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