[lazybee]

I have had ponies for many years, and we break them to ride and drive ourselves.  I do admit that the Pirelli is of no interest to me, but I respect other people who may want to use it.  Some years ago,  a lady who did Pirelli asked if she could take my then three year old Dales pony in a round pen.  Pony at that time was unbroken, but well handled.  Molly was very hesitant at first, but within 10 minutes, that lady had Molly cantering round, trotting, following her round, and doing all sorts of things, without a headcollor or rope.   I have to say I was impressed with her handling of Molly.

In my last post I mentioned showmanship and gimicks. All horses behave like that in a round pen and that trick is easy. You can take a problem horse into that environment and get the same results (try it). This the point most people are sold on the method. The problem is when you take him out of the pen. He will be the same as he was before. There is no substitute for spending lots of time with your horse and building a bond.
My horses (and one donkey) have very different personalities and different strengths and weaknesses each has to be handled differently.  I don’t really want to get into a debate about this or that method I don’t honestly think there are any breakthroughs or anything new with the NH methods apart from some of the over complicated interpretation.  Although the traditional Spanish or western way of “breaking” (I hate that word) horses are in my opinion bordering on animal abuse.
It must be considered horses have been trained for thousands of years and I really don’t think its rocket science.  For someone to come along and announce “hey forget about the last 10000yrs I know better” is a bit rich. As long as no horses are harmed, all well and good.  I do wish people would keep an open mind and not get bogged down with the details or be so rigid in their approach.

[Rosemary]

No they don't and it's not. If seen plenty folk try it and not get those results that Roxy describes. Because they aren't good enough horsemen. The round pen does help establish an initial bond - but it's only a means to an end not an end in itself. One of the PNH developements recently has been to help students recognise and interpret behaviours and assess "Horsenalities" if you like, then to apply techniques appropriately to the horse that you are dealing with. The programme is also clear that horses can behave differently from one day to the next - it's up to us to be sensitive to that and behave appropriately. It's not one size fits all.

I don't actually mind where people get the skills and understanding, so long as they get them. PNH is by no means unique in its philosophy - Pat Parelli makes no seceret of the fact that he learned from many people (and still does) and doesn't claim to have invented natrural horsemanship. What they have tried to do in the programme is make the knowledge, skills and techniques, as well as the philosophy of love language and leadership, accessible to as many people as want it, even or especially those who don't have access to trainers who are able to help them or who keep their horses in places where there is not only little support but blatant antipathy.

I'm not sure anyone is saying "lets forget the last 10,000 years" - probably NH is returning to where we were thousands of years ago before time was at a premium and folk wanted quick fixes, so just tie the horse's head down or use a more severe bit or get all your pals to force the horse up a ramp into a trailer.

I suppose the ignorant will always scorn what they cannot, or choose not, to understand - such is the way of the world, but I wholeheartedly agree that folk should keep an open mind.

[juliag]

quote from lazybee....................
In my last post I mentioned showmanship and gimicks. All horses behave like that in a round pen and that trick is easy. You can take a problem horse into that environment and get the same results (try it). This the point most people are sold on the method. The problem is when you take him out of the pen. He will be the same as he was before. There is no substitute for spending lots of time with your horse and building a bond.



I couldnt agree more with lazybee and I thought as much when I read that this morning but maybe wasnt brave enough to be the first to say it, I do know however that I myself could take pretty much any horse or pony into a round pen without any ropes, whips etc and get it to behave that way, all it takes is a very simple basic understanding of a horse and its behaviour, however as lazybee goes on to say it is a much bigger problem when you take it out again.
As far as loading into trailers goes this is actually a bit of an art of mine and i am proud to say I have never failed to load even the most difficult horse and without the use of whips or raising my voice!! The horse is always going to be stronger than you even an 11.2 will win hands down if it comes down to sheer strength , so it comes down to time and partience. Our Hanovarian mare took 45mins to load the first time (and you really wouldnt want to argue with her!) 40 mins the next, 35 the next etc, the day she only took 10 mins was a celebration and now she walks straight in prettty much on her own.
Time and patience, Really sorry to say it but not gimmicks and ropes.
[/quote]

[Hardfeather]

The whole purpose of using a round pen to work young horses is to establish a trust, and to lay the foundations for a relationship which will facilitate further training of the horse. I use one if I think it will suit the horse, but I must say I prefer to halter a young horse and work with it on a long rope.

However, I can't see where there may be problems, particularly if the experience for the horse was a good one, when the horse is taken out of the pen, as has been suggested. I'm not sure what is meant by that statement, actually.

I have done demonstrations where I have taken a young horse, previously only led in hand, and had it backed after about an hour of work. That horse was a backed horse when I'd finished and, although it was very green and would need to be worked every day for a few weeks, it's very unlikely it would regress in the abscence of a round pen.

Training horses can be likened to gloss painting...if a high quality finish is desired, each coat must be properly and carefully applied, and each layer must be proved satisfactory before work can progress. If something is not right at some stage, that must be put right or the whole will be unsatisfactory.

Trouble may arise when the round pen is seen as a substitute for a horse's sound education.

[Rosemary]

Couldn't agree more - quick fixes don't work.

[lazybee]

Couldn't agree more - quick fixes don't work.

  absolulely! with or without a round pen, it's all about trust and putting the time in

[Roxy]

Funny enough I was working with a friends pony yesterday.  I have known this pony 10 years, and then it was not a nice pony to handle.  The owner has worked her with Parelli methods, and for whatever reason, it is like a different pony.  She was a pleasure for me to handle yesterday.  Thats me who uses the more traditional methods, which she was happy with!!!

I still don't agree that anyone can take a horse into a round pen and get the same results.  In fact, it would be interesting for someone to take our gelding in......he definitely would not be trotting round in 10 minutes. In fact he would probably have dismantled the pen!!

I think we will all have to agree to disagree on this matter.  As I said, its not for me, but if people want to use Parelli then of course they can go ahead and do so.

[Hardfeather]

If a horse wants to dismantle a round pen, it's probably because the handler is putting far too much pressure on. The pen may be too small for that particular horse, as some horses need more room than do others to feel safe. Not all horses are suited to being worked loose in a round pen; some do better worked on a long rope in a larger area. With made horses, it very much depends on their history and the way they have been handled/managed previously.

The idea of the pen with young horses is to provide a safe area in which the horse can be worked, so that it has space to use its flight instinct, but it cannot run off in a straight line. The handler has to assess the extent to which the horse is inclined toward flight, and must work up to but not beyond that point, for training to be successful.

It's a popular fallacy that anyone can take a horse into a round pen and get the desired results (whatever they may be) when, actually, it's just not always possible. Some handlers seem to concentrate mainly on sending the horse away, as demonstrated by Monty Roberts, when, in fact, many horses need quite the opposite and need to be treated very carefully to avoid damaging them.

I don't follow Parelli, but I have seen a bit here and there; some of it is useful, some not so, in my opinion. I saw Monty Roberts about 15 years ago, and that was about it. I don't have the money to buy dvds, and I have dial-up internet access which makes watching clips almost impossible, so I suppose I am mostly taught by horses.

Fortunately, I have an excellent employer who has great facilities, and is a very good 'traditional' horsewoman but has an open mind to natural horsemanship methods...quite a rare combination. She drives her ponies at top level, and has lots of youngsters coming through so, what with my own at home as well, and my freelance work, I get a healthy education.

I would be interested in taking your gelding into a round pen. 

[SuzyJ]

My horses (and one donkey) have very different personalities and different strengths and weaknesses each has to be handled differently. 

I agree with the quote above - each trainer has different methods and there will always be a debate on the best way things are done, but in my mind the best way is when the horse understands through time, patience and rewards (but not punishment) what is being asked from it.

I'm still trying to build trust with our 2 mares and sometimes I feel like I'm struggling...one day we get along great and the next it can seem like we're back to square one and it's frustrating to say the least. I've owned and ridden horses for over 20 years and have never felt like this before although admittedly I've always had geldings in the past and usually from yearlings.

Things are made harder here by the fact that horses are generally not handled by women at all, broken in very young (usually only to drive) and forced to do as they're told. One of our mares reacts better with my husband and seems calmer with him, although I have no problem with her when she's in the cart. I live for the day when I can just tack up and go off for a hack without worrying what will happen next.

Admittedly if I had the money I'd enlist some help but I won't give up on them. The alternative to their quiet life here with us is not something I'd send them back to.

[Roxy]

LOL I did not mean dismantle the pen because my lad was going ballistic.  Far from it - he is a laid back relaxed sort of pony.  I meant that he investigates everything, and would take it apart bolt by bolt instand of trotting round!!!

[Hardfeather]

LOL I did not mean dismantle the pen because my lad was going ballistic.  Far from it - he is a laid back relaxed sort of pony.  I meant that he investigates everything, and would take it apart bolt by bolt instand of trotting round!!!

Oh 

Not enough pressure, then.

[Annie22]

Hi I am new here.  I practice both methods.  I have a dominant mare who reared and struck at me two years ago.  I rang a local horse rescue place to see if they could find her a home.  They put me onto someone who has done all three parelli natural horsemanship courses and she was also born into a horse family (her father was a race horse trainer).  I had lost all confidence with my mare would shake whenever I put her headstall on and knew we couldn't go on like this.  The woman came and taught me the friendly games, how to back her and to do a turn on the rear and turn on the fore.  The first lesson was a lesson in trust and confidance for both horse and handler.  We had lessons with her for nearly a year.   My mare is so loving with me.  I am not saying natural horsemanship is for everyone but it worked for Emily and I.  She is my best friend.  I also have a gelding Tyson who I don't feel I need to apply natural horsemanship as he naturally trusts me.

[Rosemary]

I think there is a misconception that natural horsemanship is something that is turned on and off. "I'm "doing" natural horsemanship"  today but I might do something else tomorrow?

To me it's a way of "being" with horses and it's just about appreciating how horses behave naturally and working with that and not expecting them to appreciate what we appreciate, to leave your human ego outside the relationship and give the horse what he needs to be a partner. I do see people "doing" natural horsemanship but they aren't really - they may be playing the 7 games but their minds are wrong.

I met a bloke a few weeks ago who is a horse trainer. He would not recognise himself  as a "natural horse trainer" but he was - his philosophy was entirely consistent.

If you believe in natural horsemanship, you will be thinking about how to keep your horse in the most natural way for him, and that applies way beyond riding. It's not just what you do, it's the way that you do it.

I don't think I'm putting this very well but I hope some of you will understand.

[juliag]

If it works for you Rosemary then thats fantastic. Every horse and every person is different and I guess what is important is that we enjoy our horses in a way that is both fun and safe.!! 

[Hardfeather]

They're at it again...this time with Robert Whittaker's young stallion 'Catwalk' at a Festival of the Horse demo on July 9th.

The stallion was difficult to bridle so PP and LP used a gum twitch and a rope from his halter round his leg which they both hauled on to get him bridled.

Some members of the audience were disgusted and walked out. Some are calling for action to be taken by RSPCA/BHS. Youtube has video footage from both camps, and HHO forum is running to nearly 70 pages on the subject.