[Rosemary]

hahah pf course they jump in the field but theres absolutely no reason to have a baby jumping cos its handler says so. 

I know that she is a protege of Monty, but wht i see in them is meeting half way, not a compromise between horse and handler but a middle ground that trust can be built on and a bond made.

What i see with parelli is total submission, not something i want fom my ponies, but thts just me.

I don't see that it's any different to anything else we ask a foal to do, like move around as we ask or pick up its feet. It's how it's asked that's important.

PNH is also about partnership and the bond between horse and handler, like Monty's join up.

I don't know what you mean about total submission - you must see something different to me. I don't want total submission from mine either (chance would be a fine thing) but I do want to be safe, show and be shown respect and have my horse show a willingness to cooperate and at least try for me. I know sometimes I don't ask in a way he understands but he's now at a stage where he will try to do what he thinks I want - if it's not what I want, I thank him and try again. Parelli in the early stages is about training the person, not the horse, to take account of the horse's natural behaviour and accept that it's a horse not a human and to behave accordingly. I've had to get forceful with my horse - sometimes he wants to be boss and that's not acceptable. I'll never lose my temper with him but I'll do what I need to to stay safe - I'll also never be harder on him than his field mates will be.

[Rosemary]

No Rosemary, of course you are right, I do know nothing about it and I agree these people are not great ambassadors of Parelli, however they are so say very experienced in it and well trained to the point that both husband, wife and daughter are all on some sort of programme in which they will end up qualified enough to teach it. Thats the problem really isnt it, it encourages  inexperienced people, with a rope and a young horse, terrifying really isnt it!

It would be extremely unfortunate if these people were to end up as Parelli instructors. All the instructors that I have had contact with have been very committed and capable horsemen, although none would claim perfection.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "it" (Parelli, I take it you mean) encouraging inexperienced people, with a rope and a young horse. Encouraging them in what way? To understand why a horse behaves like a horse? I don't think that's a bad thing. Far too many of us treat our horses like furry humans.

I think the programme can be very helpful for inexperienced people, if they apply it properly. Whether it's a young horse or not is immaterial. Young horses probably aren't for the inexperienced anyway; in fact there are lots of horses not suitable for the inexperienced, but that doesn't stop them buying them or being sold them, but that's another issue.

Any tool, including the rope, is only as good as the handler on the end of it.

It's a shame that there's so much prejudice about the Parelli programme, usually from folk who haven't bothered to find out about it first hand. And it's so vitriolic. I don't know why that is - maybe it's too overtly "American". I don't know. But there is so much wrong with the British equestrian world, we should be keeping an open mind to things that can make it better for the horse.

[Hellybee]

Fair enough, but can you seriously say that what this video shows is right?  I can t see how continually yanking on a line like that and spinning it round is going to acheive anything.

[Rosemary]

Thank you for listening. 

I'm NOT an expert and it's a while since I watched that particular DVD but from what I recall, the horse was spooking around and barging over the owner; he was clearly upset by something no-one else could see and was frankly dangerous. Now, I can back my horse up and out of my space (he's a bit of a space invader, which is a dominance issue) by giving him a stare and wiggling my finger at him - if he's paying attention and chooses to. If he's not paying attention or chooses to ignore my polite request, then I'm going to move that rope harder until he pays attention and steps back - if I have to clunk him then I will. If I was another horse, the same thing would happen, look, ears back (I can't do that bit!), nip or clunk - but I'll never go straight to clunk because that's not fair, but I will clunk if he fails to do as I ask.

As I recall, in the scenario in the DVD, the horse was reacting in a dangerous way and barging around - behaving like a prey animal. What Linda was doing, as I recall, was moving him away (for safety) and keeping him moving his feet, which is what a scared horse naturally wants to do, so allowing him to express his natural behaviour.  I think the spinning is the horse rather than him being asked to do it. Periodically, she would take the pressure, from the moving rope, off and ask him to stand still and think - ie behave like a partner not a prey animal. If he did, she left him alone. If he started pushing again, she asked him to move out of her space then took off the pressure; if he stood and relaxed, so did she. The owner and the horse then played a game, where the horse was asked to stay in an imaginary square on the ground - so long as he stayed there and relaxed, he was left alone. If he started pushing again, then pressure was applied and released when he stood quietly in the box.

The horse was not behaving like that because of anything Linda did. It was reacting to something way away and was charging all over the owner. Linda stepped in before the hore got hurt or, more likely, the owner.

As the DVD moves on, you can see the horse start to relax and focus better on the owner.

I hope this helps to explain what's going on - the YouTube clip is very misleading and taken out of context.

That's the general gist of it.

[Hermit]

Basically it is the responsible owner of any creature to admit fault and seek help rather than pass the responsibility through sale! I have seen many a cruel to be kind treatment, working with the RSPCA for many years, and they have worked, wether they be dogs or horses. Pack animals need to know who their leader is and they will submit and more importantly RESPECT. They feel safe with the security that they have a master to look after them.I know a daughter of a trainer that had a reputation of being 'cruel' but he produced Ryans Son and some of the best showjumpers this country has known, all from a backyard training. I used to livery next door to a 'General' (a horse that basically had learned to injure and terrify humans)trainer. Harvey Smith used to take on Generals, thats why he seemed to be cruel to some folk. The horse I liveried next to were neglected for up to two years! Their feet were disgusting,they were matted but you knew when they dissappeared they were being rebroken, shod,clipped and trained.They came out up £10.000 FOR A GLORIOUS STALLION.There are experts and there are those who know!!!! HERMIT

[Hellybee]

This is how i do things, there is no wrong or right way, but there is a very fine line between having a bond and making a horse scared/or that  it will plain switch off

Mine do know who theyre pack leader is, me.  All but three of them on my farm are homebred or i ve had from wee foals.  They run with me as they did today up on our headland and stand to be rugged with no headcollars, have been shown rather successfully, at a high level and perform out of theyre skin with joie de vivre and presence.  all because they are allowed to be ponies, handled only with routine in mind, when shown (may be with the first outing just to see/experience  things - anything else is a bonus) they are trained as little as possible, other than said routine movements, be it standing/turning round gates on the way out of the stable block, walking in a dignified manner to the field, sometimes have a trot to it just for me to have a look.  I have some that will trot figures of eight with me no strings, because we twork together. 

We aso have old hill mares that are set in theyre ways, and we have different ways of working with them, they are used to being rounded up and sent onto the yard then caught, this suits them as they no no different, and are to old to be told any better. 

No body knows everything, we all have new things to learn every day, all i know is that it doesnt take that much to get a pony to respect you, just a tone of voice when need be and a firm but sympathetic hand.

[Hardfeather]

I'm sorry you're disappointed in me, Rosemary, but certain aspects of PNH horsemanship teachings give me greater cause for concern, I'm afraid.

The four phases of pressure used in the so-called 'porcupine game', which is the (Parelli) preferred method of teaching a horse to back-up, are a constant source of concern for me. I cannot understand why it is taught, as it is very difficult for the student to master, and gives many horses cause to become very resistant to pressure.

A horse's introduction to pressure must be very subtle, and any pressure used must be applied very carefully lest the horse be encouraged to resist. The amount of pressure applied must be in correspondence with the potential for resistance in the horse. If too much pressure is applied, the horse may be forced to give a counter-response. This may simply result in a slight movement away from the stimulus, but could cause a horse to exhibit a more extreme reaction. A previously unhandled horse will have a very strong tendency to be flighty, as that is his main form of defence if he perceives his safety to be compromised, but, if his ability to flee is prevented, either by lack of space to do so, or by physical restraint, he may be forced to fight for his life.

All good horse trainers are aware of the benefits of teaching a horse to yield to pressure. This basic lesson, when learned correctly, will set the horse up to be inclined to move away from pressure, rather than lean into it, which is what his instinct dictates he do. Throughout his life, the horse will be required to respond to various forms of pressure, such as the handler’s voice, touch, or body attitude, for example, and often a quick response will be required of him.

If the correct amount of pressure is applied, correctly, and the horse allowed to seek relief from it, and he is rewarded by the removal of the pressure each time he offers something, the horse will learn to be willingly compliant. That is the difference between training and coercion.

However, if too much pressure is applied, and the horse’s ability to flee blocked, his instinct to lean into the pressure will come to the fore as his only means of self preservation, and a bargey horse is made. Thereafter, the horse’s education becomes a matter of damage limitation and retraining.

The ‘porcupine game‘, advocated by PNH for teaching a horse to back up, gives the horse an opportunity to learn to step back when presented with a waggling finger as a cue. Having never seen this cue before, the horse is highly unlikely to give a correct response, if he actually tries anything at all, because he simply does not understand what is being asked of him.

The Parelli student is then instructed to give the horse a totally different cue, the gentle swinging of the rope, in the hope that the horse may recognise that this means he must step back. Again there is much potential for the horse to fail to make the connection required for him to be able to comply with the handler’s wishes. The wiggling of the rope is taken to the next level, or phase, and again to its fourth level, which involves violent swinging of the rope; so violent, in fact, that it often causes the heavy clip on the end of the rope to hit the horse on its lower jaws and muzzle with some force.

This is the  point at which the horse either backs up, albeit with his nose pointing in the air as he swings his head around to avoid the pain, or he tries to run into his handler to achieve relief.

My problem with all that, lies in the use of four different cues, and increasing pressure to teach a horse one simple task which may be much simpler taught by other means, using more subtle pressure, by repetition until  the horse gives the desired response.

Horses must be free to want to offer a response of sorts to every cue from their handler. If a horse misunderstands the meaning of the cue, yet offers a measured response to it, even if it is not the desired response as required by the handler, he must be rewarded, otherwise he may be loath to try something else when cued again. If he is punished for not offering the correct response to the cue, his willingness to offer compliance will be compromised, and so his training will be adversely affected.

It is my belief that the use of the ‘porcupine game’ has such an adverse affect on the horse’s ability to learn, because he is not given a fair chance to learn, by repetition of a single cue, how to seek and execute the correct response. This is detrimental to his willingness to try.

Under no circumstances must a horse in training be punished for his failure to understand what is being asked of him, as this will definitely have the effect of preventing him seeking to relieve himself of the pressure, and therefore he only has resistance to offer.

[Hardfeather]

Thank you for listening. 

I'm NOT an expert and it's a while since I watched that particular DVD but from what I recall, the horse was spooking around and barging over the owner; he was clearly upset by something no-one else could see and was frankly dangerous. Now, I can back my horse up and out of my space (he's a bit of a space invader, which is a dominance issue) by giving him a stare and wiggling my finger at him - if he's paying attention and chooses to. If he's not paying attention or chooses to ignore my polite request, then I'm going to move that rope harder until he pays attention and steps back - if I have to clunk him then I will. If I was another horse, the same thing would happen, look, ears back (I can't do that bit!), nip or clunk - but I'll never go straight to clunk because that's not fair, but I will clunk if he fails to do as I ask.

As I recall, in the scenario in the DVD, the horse was reacting in a dangerous way and barging around - behaving like a prey animal. What Linda was doing, as I recall, was moving him away (for safety) and keeping him moving his feet, which is what a scared horse naturally wants to do, so allowing him to express his natural behaviour.  I think the spinning is the horse rather than him being asked to do it. Periodically, she would take the pressure, from the moving rope, off and ask him to stand still and think - ie behave like a partner not a prey animal. If he did, she left him alone. If he started pushing again, she asked him to move out of her space then took off the pressure; if he stood and relaxed, so did she. The owner and the horse then played a game, where the horse was asked to stay in an imaginary square on the ground - so long as he stayed there and relaxed, he was left alone. If he started pushing again, then pressure was applied and released when he stood quietly in the box.

The horse was not behaving like that because of anything Linda did. It was reacting to something way away and was charging all over the owner. Linda stepped in before the hore got hurt or, more likely, the owner.

As the DVD moves on, you can see the horse start to relax and focus better on the owner.

I hope this helps to explain what's going on - the YouTube clip is very misleading and taken out of context.

That's the general gist of it.

Gosh, it truly is amazing how different people see things.

[Rosemary]

Isn't it.

[doganjo]

I have had very little experience of horses even though I'd have loved to own one of my own - the closest I came  was riding lessons when I or my parents could afford them, a couple of riding holidays with the Scottish Youth Hostels, and managing to scrape enough together to give my own kids some lessons in the care of horses as well as riding them.  I passed on my love of horses to not just them but also my three grandchildren who will also have lessons.  I do not see them as furry humans however, nor are my five dogs my extended child family.  They all have jobs to do.

Firstly foals jumping - again I know nothing of when a foal is normally introduced to jumping but the Kennel Club does not allow any puppy to jump or train for agility jumping until it is at least 18 months.  I'd have thought since the bones of all young animals are soft till this age it would be the same for horses? What they do themselves is in play and can sometimes result in injury.

That said, what I DO have is a great deal of experience in and knowledge of dogs and dog training for various disciplines, and although I grant you this clip may be only a part of a video it still must be seen as representative of this method, and it does a great deal of harm to the general world of horse training.  If that was the intent in putting this on youtube then it has succeeded.   If I were to train my dogs in this manner I have no doubt that were I seen on video or in public hitting one of them with a rope or grabbing and tugging like this the RSPCA would be at my door.  Just because someone in America has the money to promote this as a recognised training method does not make it a good one.  In America, there are a number of dog training techniques which are veiwed with great suspicion in the UK;  electronic collar devices, toe hitches, force fetching are all methods of training dogs which I abhor.  They create fear as a method of control.  I see little difference here and would NEVER allow a horse of mine to be trained in this way, even if it is only part of the bigger parelli picture.  Anyone who takes any kind of weapon to any of my dogs (or a horse if I had one) would, and has had, it turned on them!

[Rosemary]

As you say, Annie, you're no expert in this. Horses are prey animals; dogs, like us, are predators therefore the behaviours are different. A horse also weighs half a ton, unlike a dog. The rope is not a weapon - weapons are wielded in anger. I would never do that to my horse and I deeply resent that implication.

AengusOg, I read your post again and you are incorrect about what you say about the "porcupine game".  The porcupine game relies on direct physical pressure, usually from the fingertips, applied in four phases - pressing hair, skin, muscle and bone as a rough description, with the horse given time to move away from the pressure at each phase. As soon as the horse even tries to move away, the pressure is released immediately - ie the horse gets immediate reward through comfort.

[doganjo]

As you say, Annie, you're no expert in this. Horses are prey animals; dogs, like us, are predators therefore the behaviours are different. A horse also weighs half a ton, unlike a dog. The rope is not a weapon - weapons are wielded in anger. I would never do that to my horse and I deeply resent that implication.

Now come on, Rosemary, that's unfair, you know fine I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to the method.  I have seen a few clips if this method and they all seem to be hitting the horse with a rope.  To me that is a weapon to any animal, whether a prey or a predator.  The only difference is that a prey animal's reaction is to flee whilst a predator might fight - either way it is fear that makes them react.  As a predator, I'd react that way too.  That is the point I was making.  Even though I am no expert as you rightly say, I have common sense.

[Rosemary]

I use the method; I have a rope. By implication, that means you believe I use a weapon on my horse.

Sorry, I have to leave this now.

Steve, I take it the offer of a collar is off?

[doganjo]

I use the method; I have a rope. By implication, that means you believe I use a weapon on my horse.

Sorry, I have to leave this now.

Steve, I take it the offer of a collar is off?

Rosemary, that is over simplfiication and you know it.  I am leaving it too.  We are probably both tired and stressed, and it's not worth losing friends over is it?.

[Hardfeather]

Steve, I take it the offer of a collar is off?

WTF

Of course the offer of a collar isn't off.

I am a great believer in the right of every individual to make his/her opinion known, and to be respected for the courage of their convictions.

Whether we agree or not is not the issue here. I have my opinions on Parelli horsemanship, and I have seen enough horses ruined by misinterpretation and overuse of carrot sticks and ropes to be able to have formed those opinions.

Don't ask me why, but almost every Parelli person I've met has a holier than thou attitude to their chosen brand of horsemanship, and many are positively blind to any faults which may be pointed out to them. Most of them are very keen to do down any alternative suggestions to parts of their program with which they, and their horses, are obviously having difficulty. The words 'evangelical' and 'cultish' are often associated with the word 'Parelli'. It's as if the practitioners feel they are in an embattled position....I'm not sure why that may be.

Although much of Parelli training smacks of circus tricks, there are some aspects of it which I do see as positive, but I form my opinions on the way the horse performs. Lots of Parelli-trained horses remind me of clockwork toys.....you wind them and they do the same thing over and over, without emotion, and with precision. I like my horses to enjoy what they do, and to want to be with me because they love me, not because they know what the alternatives are.

I cast no aspertion on your personal choices, and you may well be one of the few who are able to read between the lines of the Parelli doctrine, and think on your feet on meeting problems.

I didn't know you practiced. I simply thought it would be an interesting topic and that people should see for themselves how the top bod in the organisation treats horses.

My offer of the collar, and any help you may require whilst relocating, stand.

Perhaps when you are settled in my area, you may find time to come and see me work with horses. I would like that.