[Hellybee]

We used clikzen for last spray, we moving on to clik now for the rest of the season.

[SallyintNorth]

The only two justifications I can see for using Clik over Clikzin are:

• You have a known risk of the Wohlfahrtia magnifica fly (very rare in the UK)
• You need more than 8 weeks cover against Lucilia sericata (greenbottle, the usual blowfly culprit in the UK)

Because, the active ingredient dicyclanil is extremely harmful to aquatic life and to dung flies and beetles, and is excreted by treated sheep (and also washes off their wool a little in prolonged rainfall.)

You must in any case keep sheep away from watercourses for at least one hour after treatment (one to two days is better)

I ummed and errrred over whether I thought we should use Clikzin twice in preference to Clik once, if we need more than 8 weeks cover. 

Clik delivers more than 3x as much of the active ingredient as Clikzin.  But... the majority of the excreting of it (in dung and urine) happens in the first 48 hours, after that it's bound into the tissues and excreted at a much lower rate thereafter. 

I have no data on how long after Cliking the flock the dung fauna begin to recover, so am guessing that on balance, it may well be preferable to use Clik once, hit the dung flies and beetles really hard  , but then let them recover for the rest of the season.  Whereas if we use Clikzin, although we hit them less hard when we treat, if we need to treat again after the 8 weeks coverage period, then we hit the dung fauna again. 

Anyone else know more about it?

[pharnorth]

the additional environmental damage that Clik causes.....

What environmental damage? 

It's highly toxic to aquatic life.  You have to keep the sheep away from watercourses for at least an hour after administration, but reading all the bumph the producer has to supply to the government to get licensing, they actually excrete significant quantities for the first 24-48 hours, so if you can keep them away from watercourses for a day or two, that's better.

It also kills dung flies and dung beetles.  (Ever wondered why the dung seems to sit on the surface for so long on non-organic farms?  )

Sally, I am not doubting overall what you are saying about minimising the environmental impact, but I have just checked out the EMA toxicology data and the advice to Vets and which product is not something I am going to be too concerned about with a small flock.
Only 2-4% of the applied dose is absorbed over 7 days. So even though Clik application is 3x more it is only 4% that even gets into the animal and most of that is metabolised so very little dicyclanil is excreted.  So the biggest risk is the incidental contamination around the spraying area and any wash off as the sheep move around the field.  Hence in my opinion spraying twice as frequently with the lower concentration may well introduce more to the environment as there is always some aerosolised / misses the sheep.  I am going to be very careful to ensure is not sprayed near watercourses and I spray accurately but having looked at it all don't see the environmental aspects really drive a choice between the products.

The Advice to Vets says it is 'slightly toxic to fish'. That may be slightly at odds to the more conservative product labelling because it is clearly best kept away from waterways.

[SallyintNorth]

Only 2-4% of the applied dose is absorbed over 7 days. So even though Clik application is 3x more it is only 4% that even gets into the animal and most of that is metabolised so very little dicyclanil is excreted. 

That wasn't how I read the information.  I read that about 5% of the given dose was excreted in dung and urine over the first 48 hours (mainly, but in total over 7 days) and that the remainder was absorbed in the tissues and remained on the wool.  The half life in kidney and liver was longest, at 10-13 days.  I didn't see any measure of what % stayed on the wool.

5.2   Pharmacokinetic particulars
After 7 days post dosing, approximately 5% of the dose was absorbed and eliminated in urine and faeces. Systemic absorption varies with such factors as wool density and length, and sheep breed. Peak blood levels were observed between 12 and 48h post dose, accounting for <0.025 mg dicyclanil equivalents/kg.

In experimental residue depletion studies, absorbed radioactivity was widely distributed throughout the body. Highest half lives were found in liver and kidney being 13 and 10 days respectively.
In muscle, fat and wool, unchanged dicyclanil was found to be the major residue, whereas in liver and kidney the descyclopropyl dicyclanil was found to be the major residue together with unchanged dicyclanil.

from the SPC (SUMMARY OF PRODUCT CHARACTERISTICS) on the Veterinary Medicines Directorate site

[Penninehillbilly]

Ok I know my 'flock' is tiny, 2 sheep, no lambs last year and only one this year, sheared last weekend, should I get some spray or just keep an eye on them,
Didn't get down to check for 2 days and panicked when I caught up with new posts in this thread, but they are fine this morning.

[pharnorth]

I was looking at the EMA Committee for Vet Med report.  In this it says 37 to 59% remained on the wool rest was 'run off' and 0.83 to 1.05% was excreted over 7 days that was Oxford Downs, it also describes the same study with Greyface and that was around 4%. It notes there is variation between animals and species. They would have had to do a lot of different studies to get a market licence and  the differences in the numbers we have would fit with that. The lover and kidneys are the organs that do the breakdown and excretion so would always have the longest half life.

[pharnorth]

I meant liver not lover!  I hate predictive text

In the meantime I have just been out and dagged a goat, who was fine 3 hours ago and now has the runs and no he isn't sprayed because it is shearing on Thursday.

[twizzel]

Ok I know my 'flock' is tiny, 2 sheep, no lambs last year and only one this year, sheared last weekend, should I get some spray or just keep an eye on them,
Didn't get down to check for 2 days and panicked when I caught up with new posts in this thread, but they are fine this morning.

Personally I wouldn't risk it, I would apply something be it clik, clikzin or crovect. Prevention is better than cure.

[Marches Farmer]

He did say their was a specific type of fly that can do this and lays live young, causing very very fast strike (was told within 3-4 hours in warm weather), and that they burrow, whereas normal blowfly strike the maggots feed on the surface making them easy to spot, but its very rare in the uk, and is usually a summer visitor coming back with pets and holiday folk - I assume this mentioned one is it.

Interesting, as in late Spring/early Summer we had winds from an easterly and south easterly direction a lot stronger and for far longer than I can remember in this area

[Penninehillbilly]

Ok I know my 'flock' is tiny, 2 sheep, no lambs last year and only one this year, sheared last weekend, should I get some spray or just keep an eye on them,
Didn't get down to check for 2 days and panicked when I caught up with new posts in this thread, but they are fine this morning.

Personally I wouldn't risk it, I would apply something be it clik, clikzin or crovect. Prevention is better than cure.

Thanks Twizzel

[Anke]

Ok I know my 'flock' is tiny, 2 sheep, no lambs last year and only one this year, sheared last weekend, should I get some spray or just keep an eye on them,
Didn't get down to check for 2 days and panicked when I caught up with new posts in this thread, but they are fine this morning.

Personally I wouldn't risk it, I would apply something be it clik, clikzin or crovect. Prevention is better than cure.

Thanks Twizzel

But only if you can get a couple of single doses from friendly farmer or vet. Otherwise just a wee bit pricey... isn't it?
 I haven't been able to clik my flock yet, as weather has been against us... they are all fine. checked daily, no runny bums (right now). So I will do it when I can get a 24hour or better 48 hour dry weather forecast on a weekend...

[Remy]

Since I've had sheep (8 years now), every single year there has been something different that I have learned.  And I've learned that sheep can die from seemingly more conditions than any other animal I know!  I've lost several adults and lambs to fly strike, despite being vigilant and getting to recognise the symptoms, it can still be easy to miss.  I've brought in struck sheep and treated them, only to see a few days later they are struck somewhere else in a place I hadn't spotted  .  So the fact that sheep can be struck internally is again something new to me.

I know that rabbits can be affected by flystrike but one year my old pony was showing signs of distress - and I found that he was struck on his back, the whole of his tail and inside his sheath!!  I didn't know that horse and ponies could get it.

This year my shearer said that maggots are becoming resistant to the available fly strike treatments such as Crovect, so I guess it's a case of not over-treating the same as worming, but to target the individuals who need it.

[Coximus]

yep my vet said the same, Said he had actually handled a case last month where the maggots didnt die on a DIRECT spray of crovect........... they just continued wiggling, he had to remove the lot by hand.

Its only a matter of time. Alot to be said for old dip - another one I have used is soappy water - it blocks the maggots breathing tubes, they stop moving in about 2 mins. Horrid and not great but if your out and dont have the chems with you, (My sheep are oftne on land away from home) - its a damn sight better than nothing, and you can clear the poor girl before you put her in the van and get her home for full treatment.,

[Marches Farmer]

I wonder if wound powder would have the same effect?

[Old Shep]

Ruggle oil is a good treatment for maggots and deters flies if you want a environmentally friendly product. I wouldnt depend on it entirely but good to use before clipping.
Www.karenruggles.co.uk