The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Coximus on June 11, 2015, 10:33:19 pm
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I had a ewe die on me on Sunday, and its lamb sadly followed suit last night.
In the case of the ewe I found her about 2-5 hours after death (max 5 hours since Id moved the flock) - and her back end and underside was swarming with maggots, however she was showing no signs of distress when she was moved, and was otherwise normal.
The lamb was bottle fed for 3 days and was otherwise fine until last night, when it became lethargic. I tried to feed it again as per usual but it died when I picked it up - about 5-6 mins afterwards I noticed maggots crawling out of its anus and a few on its underside - these were not present 4 hours previously when I fed it and gave it a good look over and cleaned up abit as it wa scouring lightly...
This isnt flystrike is it? Or not as I know it,.,...... never seen maggots coming out like that so soon after death.
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I'm afraid that I would say the cause of death was fly strike. The eggs would have been laid long before death if they had hatched so quickly. They had probably got into the blood stream and brain. Spotting flystrike is a black art with very subtle signs like a subtle shudder, head hanging low and looking sad and even very experienced shepherds can miss it. Sorry for your loss.
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I wouldn't think that maggots hatch that quick so I would say you had strike. I would as a matter of urgency check very closely any other sheep you have and get them some flystrike preventative. In this warm humid weather strike is very likely.
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I'm afraid that I have to agree with the previous answers, fly strike. In the right temperature and humidity the eggs can hatch quickly. I would treat the remainder of the flock depending on if they have been shorn or not and treat the lambs anyway. A terrible situation and everyone will feel for you and your loss :gloomy:
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Thats what worries me - Ive had a look over the rest of them, and see nothing - had a good inspection and tipped 8 this eve - nothing visible at all, no smell, nothing - but their wasnt on the ewe or lamb either so I worry about something inside - used last bit of crovect on them just incase and ordered some more, but wont have it till tues.
Bugger - horrible way to loose animals, especially catching unawares.
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Sorry about that Cox :hug:
We ve found three, two the day we clickzened, ans another one yesterday, she must have missed the first spraying somehow, she right as rain though, we had to fly to catch her :relief:
That's the stuff of horror stories that they can go up they're bum, shudder...
Big hug x
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I listen for them too, yes I know I m a bit wacky :thinking:
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awful, poor sheep and poor you. That must have been terrible to see.
Hellybee.....?you listen for them? Im probably going to regret asking this but what do you hear?
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Other signs to watch for are flies buzzing around a particular sheep - even if you can't see anything, chances are that sheep's been strucken.
And once the horrible things hatch and start munching, there's a wetness and a smell. The wet can sometimes be seen, sometimes just a slight discolouration of the fleece, and/or something about how the fibres lie.
Someone up-thread talked about sudden darting movements of the head, or foot - always watch a sheep that does this, if they do it again they have probably got something going on somewhere.
I've no experience of internal strikes, and don't know what, if any, external signs of this there might be, apart from a sheep that's clearly a bit miz - ears drooping, lying down reticent to move, hanging head and not grazing.
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awful, poor sheep and poor you. That must have been terrible to see.
Hellybee.....?you listen for them? Im probably going to regret asking this but what do you hear?
Apparently they kind of rustle, but luckily I've never heard that. Never had anal maggots either (personally or in a sheep :thumbsup:).
There is indeed a smell, so look, sniff, feel for damp and listen.
We brought in a ewe yesterday because she was clearly bothered by something, twitching, jumping and stopping and starting. We got her fleece off and no strike, so it's definitely worth checking at the first signs, assume it's strike, and if it's not then you've saved a sheep from the agony of being eaten alive. I think she must just have had a fly bothering her, or maybe a couple of dags ( she has very long fleece) I love that Ozzie saying " come on, rattle your dags", ie get moving.
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We brought in a ewe yesterday because she was clearly bothered by something, twitching, jumping and stopping and starting.
Lots of horse flies about here at the mo making my sheep do just that.
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In humid weather like this fly eggs can hatch less than six hours after being laid.
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You know the snap crackle pop sound? Wel it's like a softer version of that. The smell reminds me of my grandads old potting shed.....
The head lifting and twisting maybe bearing teeth, catch it. Any dark looking areas, fleece looking lifted. Taking them selves away. Just get them in n spray them and dag em. there's nowt worse than maggots. And as said above, time is critical.
Dosed the ewes n lambs over the last two days. 92 ewes and shearlings and culls, and 77 lambs. All sprayed up n up in the wind, brilliant. Joined them up with another 54 shearlings and the little darlings moved in a treat. And breathe :) x
Also nurse maid to two post op castrated ponies too, dear Binci and dewi they're doing brill too x
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Roll on shearing....... :thumbsup:
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Jeeeeeeezz. :-\
Im suddenly not looking forward to our lambs any more
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So sorry. It is hard to spot unless you have been watching your flock closely and then notice subtle changes in behaviour. Smell is distinct, rotting flesh and you can smell from quite a distance. I'm paranoid about it and have caught a couple who weren't showing any signs but when I dagged them maggots were heaving. Gut instinct sometimes tells you which are struck.
Fingers crossed you have no more.
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Their getting moved this weekend and The last few will be sheared then - going to try and handle everyone of them this weekend and then as many as I can during the week.
Whats got me worried is them going up inside - my neighbour summed it up as "the worst, they're dead before you have a chance to find out" vet said much the same, if they get struck in the anus its unlikely you will see if you tip them, and it kills quicker than normal strike from blood poisoning apparently.
Makes me angry, ah well.
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I find the clicking (or "snap, crackle and pop") noise that they make very useful if you want to check if you've found all the maggots on an animal you've been treating. Just put your ear right up against the fleece and quite often you'll hear them and know that you've missed a pocket of them. If you can't hear anything then that usually means you've got them all.
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I suggest you spend a lot more time looking to your sheep and being aware that this time of year blow flies are active.
What a terrible and un necessary way for an animal to die, eaten away by maggots.
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Castle Farm - please don't make the situation worse by burdening guilt. Even very experienced sheep farmers can miss this, its hard.
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Watch the shoulders too xx
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Yes Shep
You do sometimes miss one in early stages of strike, but it takes about 5 days for a sheep to die from it depending on weather. Just giving them a quick glance over the fence is no use whatsoever. You, if you are any sort of stock person will spot something is wrong within a minute of checking the sheep, especially at a time of year when it can and does happen.
I find it very concerning that 7 so called Smallholders disliked the fact that I made the person allowing this to happen feel guilty.
Sickening.
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Checked the sheep last night. A three month old lamb was behaving very strangely. Running around could not keep still, continually rubbing himself against the fence. Got him in, no obvious issues. The rest made a lot of noise and a neighbour appeared to ask what was wrong. Took one look and got an old tin bath filled with Jeyes fluid and water and dumped the lamb in it obviously holding its head above water. In a few minutes the flies started to crawl out of the wool. When sure they were gone allowed him to dry off. Have done him with Crovect this morning and there seems no ill effects. Before anyone jumps on me. YES I did Crovect them all 2 weeks ago and no did not miss one. I only have a small flock and you can tell by the blue dye. Will be watching carefully from now on.
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I find it very concerning that 7 so called Smallholders disliked the fact that I made the person allowing this to happen feel guilty.
I think that most of know that the OP feels quite awful enough without having to be shamed on a public forum.
All of us learn some things the hard way. Some of us are lucky enough to learn some things an easier way, by hearing about other people's hard lessons on here.
Don't let's make this a place where people won't own up to their hardest lessons for fear of being made to feel worse than they already do. In the end, that would result in more lessons being learned the hard way by us all.
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I dont feel guilty as a result of any comments on here - I work on a stock farm with well over 1200 mules / 90 cattle and am familiar with how to spot and handle stock - All and any losses are sad in themselves and most could be avoided with hindsight.....
I asked on here as it was the first time, in hundreds of cases of strike I have seen, that I have come across a strike that was not visible externally, and I see my stock 2-3x daily, and am always quick to get a hold of any suspicious ones... (this morning ive removed a pebble wedged between my rams hoof - he seems to like getting gravel in their...) again this ewe puzzled me as she was fine when handled and moved the day before -
Their is always something that will get you by surprise in farming, that much is sure, and I do know it is easy to keep tight tabs on animals when you only keep a few dozen - I personally have 80 currently - and work with the 1200 above. - The 1200 unit expects.... a death rate of 2% a year............. I would not tolerate more than this one.......
It is also interesting how some people respond to the issue of guilt - to my My animals are part of the way I make my living - and I have to work 60-80h a week to make it at this time of year... as most stock keepers and labourers do.... this is a marked contrast to someone who lives on the land with their animals and has the time, means, (often retired) to pay 24/7 notice to their stock.
As baffledog points out - the perfect stockman will still loose stock - since this post my neighbour has told me the horror story of 3 summers ago where even the vet confirmed.... crovect was not 100% effective... and some flys are developing resistance.
Thank you all for your concern - even those posting criticisms - it all contributes to everyone’s understandings of the issue -
I would not take it personally - everyones experiences of livestock are different, depending on why they keep them - I just moved 400 of the stock I work with this morning... at least 11 had strike and have been treated - this is 3 weeks after the whole lot were treated..... yet one of the other shepherds should of handled them on Monday just gone, and some of these cases should of been picked up then... yet the guys in question are second to none imo.
My 80 moved as well half an hour ago - 2 lame, both sprayed, cleaned and checked over, one is reccurant and due to be culled, the other a bog standard case of footrot in the early stages and will be fine within the week....
Next week it will be another 2 ewe's turn to be less than 100%.
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There by the grace of god go I.........
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Sorry to hear about your recent experience. I lost a Wiltshire Horn lamb last year to fly-strike. I checked the flock in the morning at about 7am and when I came to check again at about 4pm she had been very badly struck and died shortly after despite immediate treatment. The speed with which it took hold was astounding as was the number of maggots. With hindsight, I perhaps should have looked for more signs but I didn't as a novice smallholder who believed that WH lambs wouldn't be susceptible to it. I am sure that we all do the best that we can in the circumstances and I am really sorry to hear about the death of your animals.
Helen
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I would think that there are no or very few sheep owners who at some time have had strike, there's a saying about here " look in before you look out ".
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I've no experience of internal strikes, and don't know what, if any, external signs of this there might be, apart from a sheep that's clearly a bit miz - ears drooping, lying down reticent to move, hanging head and not grazing.
I've just been reading up about all the blowfly-prevention meds (see other thread) and have come across something I think very relevant to this thread.
The difference between Clik and Clikzin is the strength of the active ingredient. This makes for a shorter withdrawal with Clikzin. When you look at the 'Uses' of the two products, they both protect against the green bottle, Lucilia sericata, but only Clik protects against Wohlfahrtia magnifica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wohlfahrtia_magnifica) - which is a fly whose
larvae chiefly infest genitalia or open wounds
Coximus had a ewe and lamb died quickly with no early indications, maggots internal, local farmers and vets have seen this before.... Could it have been this Wohlfahrtia magnifica? In which case, only Clik would prevent strike.
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Added this about the above fly....
http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2556&Itemid=2836 (http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2556&Itemid=2836)
Mmm the female doesn't lay eggs, they start developing in her womb .... :tired:
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YUK!!! So when I became a smallholder, I unwittingly took on a new nemesis by the name of Wohlfahrtia Magnifica!?!!? She even sounds like a comic book villain! >:(
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Super villain
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[
The difference between Clik and Clikzin is the strength of the active ingredient. This makes for a shorter withdrawal with Clikzin. When you look at the 'Uses' of the two products, they both protect against the green bottle, Lucilia sericata, but only Clik protects against Wohlfahrtia magnifica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wohlfahrtia_magnifica) - which is a fly whose
larvae chiefly infest genitalia or open wounds
Thanks for this .... had assumed (as I'm sure many others have) that they are the same....... used Clikzin on my 3 Rams rather than buy another Clik when I ran out ....... will keep closer watch on them .
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I think the internal / wound-infecting fly is not so widespread as the greenbottle, so unless you know you have the former in your area, then Clikzin is all you need, and is cheaper, shorter withdrawal and presumeably significantly reduced environmental impact. :thumbsup:
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Thank you Sally. Im abs paranoid about this issue so this has been really helpful to me. Im getting Clik now, no ifs and buts
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According to the C D C as of june 24th 2015 wohlfahrtia magnifica is in the Mediterranean basin with central Italy and Hungary the nearest to the uk , it likes really hot and dry , so don't panic yet :raining:
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I was told by a much wiser shepherd than me to spend at least 20-40 minutes each day just quietly watching each field or area of sheep. He was widely regarded as one of the finest shepherds in the area, so I have.
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Yes marches that is a great bit of information, observation and move observation, time spent with your animals studying there behaviour will go a very long way to good animal husbandry.
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That would work out at about 5 hours staring a day for Me! :thinking:
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Interesting - an update from my end as well;
I did bring this up with the vet, who said its something they see very rarely - but if it was internal they usually die of blood poisoning full stop, and quickly to boot, especially if the anus is where they enter.
He did say their was a specific type of fly that can do this and lays live young, causing very very fast strike (was told within 3-4 hours in warm weather), and that they burrow, whereas normal blowfly strike the maggots feed on the surface making them easy to spot, but its very rare in the uk, and is usually a summer visitor coming back with pets and holiday folk - I assume this mentioned one is it.
Since then I;ve brought this up with many many people with sheep and quite a few have seen this horror story - no external strike signs, even on a dead animal, no flesh eaten, no surface skin damage, no maggots or eggs in fleece, the strike purely internal / coming from genetalia and anus areas - and all killed extremely swiftly - it seems to be something that is rare, usually 1-2 sheep at a time and the 3 neighbours who have had it, 2 were this year, within a week of mine. The other incident was about 5 years ago and took 6 sheep in one day.
This would be a terrifying problem if it became more common with warmer summers.
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Thanks for that update, Coximus.
To me, therefore, if we want to use one of these products at all, we should all use Clikzin and not Clik, as the beastie that Clik protects against is extremely rare, and the additional environmental damage that Clik causes is not therefore warranted.
What do you think, Coximus?
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I have used clikzin this year in May and it provided coverage all the way up until shearing (which was monday)
I am sorting lambs this coming weekend and will re clikzin those which arent up to fat yet
I will leave the ewes for a few weeks and then will most likely use clik again when the wool growth comes back, I used to use crovect but never had the success that Clik gives
5 ewes got flystruck beginning of may before we applied clikzin, but it wasnt very much, just a little around the bum
The shedding ewes didnt get fly struck but they are bothered hugely by head flies and any other creepy crawly
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the additional environmental damage that Clik causes.....
What environmental damage? :-[
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the additional environmental damage that Clik causes.....
What environmental damage? :-[
It's highly toxic to aquatic life. You have to keep the sheep away from watercourses for at least an hour after administration, but reading all the bumph the producer has to supply to the government to get licensing, they actually excrete significant quantities for the first 24-48 hours, so if you can keep them away from watercourses for a day or two, that's better.
It also kills dung flies and dung beetles. (Ever wondered why the dung seems to sit on the surface for so long on non-organic farms? ;))
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In many ways I agree Sally - that said I currently use Citriodol - provides protection for upto 4 weeks, kills magots in seconds and is organic certified and is derrived from a type of eucalyptus.
It is not harmful to in the same residual way Clik and Clikzin are - that said I have both. In the case of a sevear outbreak, case or it becoming persistantly problematic (IE flys are breeding on carrion somewhere nearby etc.... (road kill etc) I may use clikzin.
That said I have only ever done so once, Citriodol has done me fine, and is kinder on the sheeps skin to boot.
Personally I think a graded up system, where you hold all the availible chems, but use them appropriatley is the best way foreward. Having had an internal strike now.... Im of the opinion if it happens again the Whole flock gets Clik'd. Sadly it is not something you get many warning signs of so cant easily prevent it, and I am not sure if the Citriodol has a preventative effect on this particular fly
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We used clikzen for last spray, we moving on to clik now for the rest of the season.
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The only two justifications I can see for using Clik over Clikzin are:
- You have a known risk of the Wohlfahrtia magnifica fly (very rare in the UK)
- You need more than 8 weeks cover against Lucilia sericata (greenbottle, the usual blowfly culprit in the UK)
Because, the active ingredient dicyclanil is extremely harmful to aquatic life and to dung flies and beetles, and is excreted by treated sheep (and also washes off their wool a little in prolonged rainfall.)
You must in any case keep sheep away from watercourses for at least one hour after treatment (one to two days is better)
I ummed and errrred over whether I thought we should use Clikzin twice in preference to Clik once, if we need more than 8 weeks cover.
Clik delivers more than 3x as much of the active ingredient as Clikzin. But... the majority of the excreting of it (in dung and urine) happens in the first 48 hours, after that it's bound into the tissues and excreted at a much lower rate thereafter.
I have no data on how long after Cliking the flock the dung fauna begin to recover, so am guessing that on balance, it may well be preferable to use Clik once, hit the dung flies and beetles really hard :'(, but then let them recover for the rest of the season. Whereas if we use Clikzin, although we hit them less hard when we treat, if we need to treat again after the 8 weeks coverage period, then we hit the dung fauna again.
Anyone else know more about it?
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the additional environmental damage that Clik causes.....
What environmental damage? :-[
It's highly toxic to aquatic life. You have to keep the sheep away from watercourses for at least an hour after administration, but reading all the bumph the producer has to supply to the government to get licensing, they actually excrete significant quantities for the first 24-48 hours, so if you can keep them away from watercourses for a day or two, that's better.
It also kills dung flies and dung beetles. (Ever wondered why the dung seems to sit on the surface for so long on non-organic farms? ;))
Sally, I am not doubting overall what you are saying about minimising the environmental impact, but I have just checked out the EMA toxicology data and the advice to Vets and which product is not something I am going to be too concerned about with a small flock.
Only 2-4% of the applied dose is absorbed over 7 days. So even though Clik application is 3x more it is only 4% that even gets into the animal and most of that is metabolised so very little dicyclanil is excreted. So the biggest risk is the incidental contamination around the spraying area and any wash off as the sheep move around the field. Hence in my opinion spraying twice as frequently with the lower concentration may well introduce more to the environment as there is always some aerosolised / misses the sheep. I am going to be very careful to ensure is not sprayed near watercourses and I spray accurately but having looked at it all don't see the environmental aspects really drive a choice between the products.
The Advice to Vets says it is 'slightly toxic to fish'. That may be slightly at odds to the more conservative product labelling because it is clearly best kept away from waterways.
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Only 2-4% of the applied dose is absorbed over 7 days. So even though Clik application is 3x more it is only 4% that even gets into the animal and most of that is metabolised so very little dicyclanil is excreted.
That wasn't how I read the information. I read that about 5% of the given dose was excreted in dung and urine over the first 48 hours (mainly, but in total over 7 days) and that the remainder was absorbed in the tissues and remained on the wool. The half life in kidney and liver was longest, at 10-13 days. I didn't see any measure of what % stayed on the wool.
5.2 Pharmacokinetic particulars
After 7 days post dosing, approximately 5% of the dose was absorbed and eliminated in urine and faeces. Systemic absorption varies with such factors as wool density and length, and sheep breed. Peak blood levels were observed between 12 and 48h post dose, accounting for <0.025 mg dicyclanil equivalents/kg.
In experimental residue depletion studies, absorbed radioactivity was widely distributed throughout the body. Highest half lives were found in liver and kidney being 13 and 10 days respectively.
In muscle, fat and wool, unchanged dicyclanil was found to be the major residue, whereas in liver and kidney the descyclopropyl dicyclanil was found to be the major residue together with unchanged dicyclanil.
from the SPC (SUMMARY OF PRODUCT CHARACTERISTICS) on the Veterinary Medicines Directorate site (http://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/ProductInformationDatabase/Default.aspx)
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Ok I know my 'flock' is tiny, 2 sheep, no lambs last year and only one this year, sheared last weekend, should I get some spray or just keep an eye on them,
Didn't get down to check for 2 days and panicked when I caught up with new posts in this thread, but they are fine this morning.
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I was looking at the EMA Committee for Vet Med report. In this it says 37 to 59% remained on the wool rest was 'run off' and 0.83 to 1.05% was excreted over 7 days that was Oxford Downs, it also describes the same study with Greyface and that was around 4%. It notes there is variation between animals and species. They would have had to do a lot of different studies to get a market licence and the differences in the numbers we have would fit with that. The lover and kidneys are the organs that do the breakdown and excretion so would always have the longest half life.
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I meant liver not lover! I hate predictive text
In the meantime I have just been out and dagged a goat, who was fine 3 hours ago and now has the runs and no he isn't sprayed because it is shearing on Thursday.
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Ok I know my 'flock' is tiny, 2 sheep, no lambs last year and only one this year, sheared last weekend, should I get some spray or just keep an eye on them,
Didn't get down to check for 2 days and panicked when I caught up with new posts in this thread, but they are fine this morning.
Personally I wouldn't risk it, I would apply something be it clik, clikzin or crovect. Prevention is better than cure.
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He did say their was a specific type of fly that can do this and lays live young, causing very very fast strike (was told within 3-4 hours in warm weather), and that they burrow, whereas normal blowfly strike the maggots feed on the surface making them easy to spot, but its very rare in the uk, and is usually a summer visitor coming back with pets and holiday folk - I assume this mentioned one is it.
Interesting, as in late Spring/early Summer we had winds from an easterly and south easterly direction a lot stronger and for far longer than I can remember in this area
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Ok I know my 'flock' is tiny, 2 sheep, no lambs last year and only one this year, sheared last weekend, should I get some spray or just keep an eye on them,
Didn't get down to check for 2 days and panicked when I caught up with new posts in this thread, but they are fine this morning.
Personally I wouldn't risk it, I would apply something be it clik, clikzin or crovect. Prevention is better than cure.
Thanks Twizzel
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Ok I know my 'flock' is tiny, 2 sheep, no lambs last year and only one this year, sheared last weekend, should I get some spray or just keep an eye on them,
Didn't get down to check for 2 days and panicked when I caught up with new posts in this thread, but they are fine this morning.
Personally I wouldn't risk it, I would apply something be it clik, clikzin or crovect. Prevention is better than cure.
Thanks Twizzel
But only if you can get a couple of single doses from friendly farmer or vet. Otherwise just a wee bit pricey... isn't it?
I haven't been able to clik my flock yet, as weather has been against us... they are all fine. checked daily, no runny bums (right now). So I will do it when I can get a 24hour or better 48 hour dry weather forecast on a weekend...
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Since I've had sheep (8 years now), every single year there has been something different that I have learned. And I've learned that sheep can die from seemingly more conditions than any other animal I know! I've lost several adults and lambs to fly strike, despite being vigilant and getting to recognise the symptoms, it can still be easy to miss. I've brought in struck sheep and treated them, only to see a few days later they are struck somewhere else in a place I hadn't spotted :( . So the fact that sheep can be struck internally is again something new to me.
I know that rabbits can be affected by flystrike but one year my old pony was showing signs of distress - and I found that he was struck on his back, the whole of his tail and inside his sheath!! I didn't know that horse and ponies could get it.
This year my shearer said that maggots are becoming resistant to the available fly strike treatments such as Crovect, so I guess it's a case of not over-treating the same as worming, but to target the individuals who need it.
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yep my vet said the same, Said he had actually handled a case last month where the maggots didnt die on a DIRECT spray of crovect........... they just continued wiggling, he had to remove the lot by hand.
Its only a matter of time. Alot to be said for old dip - another one I have used is soappy water - it blocks the maggots breathing tubes, they stop moving in about 2 mins. Horrid and not great but if your out and dont have the chems with you, (My sheep are oftne on land away from home) - its a damn sight better than nothing, and you can clear the poor girl before you put her in the van and get her home for full treatment.,
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I wonder if wound powder would have the same effect?
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Ruggle oil is a good treatment for maggots and deters flies if you want a environmentally friendly product. I wouldnt depend on it entirely but good to use before clipping.
Www.karenruggles.co.uk (http://Www.karenruggles.co.uk)
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Ruggle worked really well on our tups heads, as they were being bothered badly by flies, within mins there were barely any around them. We also use Buzz off buckets which contains garlic, we put these out early May and they seem to help, got some helpful vitamins and minerals in them too
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Interesting, I've heard of it used for itchy ponies, but not for sheep up til now
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There are a few options around http://www.caltech-crystalyx.co.uk/products/products-folder/garlyx/ (http://www.caltech-crystalyx.co.uk/products/products-folder/garlyx/)
Ive used these before, can't find the ones I'm using now, but I only changed because the shop changed hands and supplier.
They don't seem to eat them as fast as they eat mineral buckets in winter.