[Hellybee]

Well the time has come to say good bye to our big Lleyn boys this year, they have been a joy to have around, big soft lumps, such lovely docile natures, it will be a very bittersweet day when they go....

But the show must go on.   so we are at sixes and sevens what to go for next.

so what we are looking at is getting a welsh mountain boy for a small group of ewes (i love the welsh in particular, the welsh blood is very special, we have some with welsh blood and they are truly wonderful, intelligent and just add that little bit of something else to the lleyn.  but also we dont want to tup the whole flock with them as we dont want a load of welsh ram lambs, but get the chance to select some lovely welsh x ewe lambs...... so thats the quandary, what do we use as our main sire(s)

we dont want charollais (apologies to any enthusiasts but i cant be looking at those  mugs in our fields lol ) and we dont want texel, big old heads and i hear mixed comments about the suffolk.   Am interested in the NZ Suffolk, ryeland, poll dorset but I can imagine there are many breeds that i know nowt about that would compliment our ewes and live happily on our terrain/climate,   so please can you enlighten us.


we are quite high up on the pembrokeshire coastal path, hard winters, gets very wet, even on rocky fields, so need to be hardy.

we want  a ram of good size, like  the lleyn ram, , excellent limbs and feet (good bone  a must), excellent mothering traits.

we are having a good sort out this year of ewes too.  we have just over 170 ewes and lambs to choose from, its going to be heartrending but all for the greater good,  sigh.....

 

[ZaktheLad]

I have been really impressed with my Hampshire Down ram.  Hardy, quick finishing lambs and the ram himself has a superb temperament is easy to handle and biddable.

[Hellybee]

pootles off and looks at some of them.... cheers Zak

mmm i like the look of them, are they up and at em pretty quick Zak?  Not that a slow to start lamb would be a problem we would always go the extra mile, but dont want to going have to lamp em all etc, as i appreciate we would ve had to do with say the charollais?
 

[Me]

Probably not your thing but you aren't far away from me on the Pembrokshire coast path you are welcome to come and see the Charmoise. If not look on Charmoise Sheep Breeders on Facebook for an idea of what they are. There are photos of newborn Lleyn x Charmoise twin lambs from Lleyn yearlings, need a sunny day to take another photo! Also some at NCE mart out of Glamorgan Welsh ewe lambs (probably from a lot higher than you) - would like to call them Glamoise.. these would be by the ram lamb shown on the left <<<< here
I think I have the group settings so visitors can see photos etc, let me know if that is not the case

[Hillview Farm]

  I have pedigree charollais and they didn't require a lamb! I found them to be keen lambs up and growing. I really like the Charollais crosses, You get quick growth etc with other qualities of the cross!

I like my field of 'mugs' 

[Marches Farmer]

You can buy or hire a Southdown from me and see how you get along!  Getting increasing enquiries from shepherds who don't want the thin skins of the Charollais or the lambing problems of the Texel and Beltex, including a farmer lambing Scotch Mules outside at 1000 ft in February who took a couple of rams from me 4 years ago.  Don't be misled by the "South" part of their name - the South Downs are high and bare and have the thin, wiry grasses of the chalk downs.  The Downs are also the first high ground the winds hit coming off the English Channel, so soft they are not!  I put my Badger Face to a SD every other year and have excellent lambs - quick to suckle, vigorous, good fleece and conformation and grow away well without creep.

[Ladygrey]

I dont know what to suggest, but I think the ryeland would be too soft, I have had ryeland cross shetlands and cross wiltshire horns

None of the lambs did as well as the charollais crosses, their feet are bad, I dont like the wooly legs and faces, they lost weight in the winter, and they had higher incidences of mucky bums, wool is course and not nice

I know most of TAS are avid ryeland fans... so I'm sorry if I offended anyone

Charollais lambs are not ugly, and lots of charollais rams are hairy faced and look like normal sheep, below is a charollais cross shetland ewe



Or the Charmoise is smaller but more shapely than the charollais with a very high KO%, they are much quicker to get up and go, and they have white hair on thier faces, very easy lambing and very tough, I am very impressed with my charmoise lambs and next year all of my ewes will go to the charmoise


Photo below is of a (very cute) 2 day old charmoise lamb, showing his furry face and umm cuteness



Photo below is a Charmoise ram lamb (far left of the photo) he is much bigger now but I dont have a new photo of him

[fsmnutter]

What about a Beulah speckled face as you're in the right part of the country? Would cover both ram requirements as they are welsh mountain types, but are big and confirmation wise can produce good finishing lambs, but are also nice small, easy pushed out, quick to get up lambs, and I've seen a farmer use them on mule hoggs with very few reuiring any assistance, and he kept the cross lambs as good breeding stock.

[ZaktheLad]

pootles off and looks at some of them.... cheers Zak

mmm i like the look of them, are they up and at em pretty quick Zak?  Not that a slow to start lamb would be a problem we would always go the extra mile, but dont want to going have to lamp em all etc, as i appreciate we would ve had to do with say the charollais?

I can honestly say that I have never experienced lambs that arrive with such vigour.  Mine are up on their feet so quickly and many come out trying to suck on your fingers!!  I have never had to put them under a lamp - they are keen to get on with life and are jumping about in no time at all!   

My ram prior to the Hampshire Down was a Charollais and I would NEVER go back to one of them now. 

[Foobar]

Why do you want to switch from using Lleyn rams?  What characteristics of them do you want to improve on?

[SallyintNorth]

dont want to going have to lamp em all etc, as i appreciate we would ve had to do with say the charollais?

Absolutely not!   

We use Charollais mainly because we get slippery lambs easily born and very active, straight round to the milk bar.  Of the breeds I've used, only Shetland are more active and good at finding and using the teat.

For a cold wet place you would choose a Charollais with wool on his head, this indicates a more woolly animal and most of the lambs will have a reasonable covering.  We do put the plastic macs on them if it's wet when they are born, and the odd couple will get brought into a shed with mum for protection from the weather if they are very bare-skinned.

(I know you don't like them and won't choose them, but I can't let you get away with suggesting they would all need the lamp.  That's the opposite of my experience - on a north Cumbrian hill farm lambing outdoors.)


I know there are good and bad examples of all breeds, so I expect to get shot down by Suffolk supporters, but I have found Suffolks to be big-boned (difficult lambings), dopey (lambs won't get up and suck, often have to be tubed and held to the teat) and to have terrible feet.


We find the Dutch Texel to be very good, but you have to choose a tup with easy lambing in mind.  Narrow shoulders, not overlarge and not excessively over-muscled at the rear is what we look for, which sadly is not what they breed for, so in my view they are ruining the breed at the moment. 


Whatever you do choose, please let us know how you get on!

[Ladygrey]

Absolutely not!   

We use Charollais mainly because we get slippery lambs easily born and very active, straight round to the milk bar.  Of the breeds I've used, only Shetland are more active and good at finding and using the teat.

For a cold wet place you would choose a Charollais with wool on his head, this indicates a more woolly animal and most of the lambs will have a reasonable covering.  We do put the plastic macs on them if it's wet when they are born, and the odd couple will get brought into a shed with mum for protection from the weather if they are very bare-skinned.

(I know you don't like them and won't choose them, but I can't let you get away with suggesting they would all need the lamp.  That's the opposite of my experience - on a north Cumbrian hill farm lambing outdoors.)

I too have never put a charollais under a lamp, my charollais cross zwartbles lambs were dopey yes but charollais lambs born to the shetland ewes were wooly and happy to be outside and quick on thier feet

the lambs out of my hampshire down cross charollais ram lamb have been dopey and slow to get going in comparison and my friend who breeds pedigree recorded hampshires always has very very dopey lambs.

However as zacthelad says hers are up and running and were fine so there are variations within the breed.

but everyones lamb vigour is of course rated differently!! if I have to show a lamb a teat or rub it off then I say it has no vigour... other people may say it didnt go under a heat lamp so therefore has vigour :p

Charollais have been normal and better than hampshire cross, shetland and charmoise lambs have been the same, hit the ground running and dont come back!!!

[Me]

Total breed assassination coming up! This explains the "nutter" in fsmnutter! The Beulah has to be about the worst conformed ewe going!! Next to the Lleyn cross Charmoise the Beulah crosses are poor. I bought 15 to make up the numbers last year and wish I hadn't! Also mad, not a bit mad, totally mad. Mad f. crazy mad. Did I mention mad?   

Though if you want some Beulahs.... I just happen to have some lovely ones, one careful owner...

To be fair I have a few Lleyn/Beulah ewes and they do a fair job.. also a bit mad. Lleyn are nice have you considered them? (!)

If Dutch are of interest Mr Jan Rodenburgh lives not far away, "Turbo" texels

[jaykay]

I'm thinking of using a blue Texel on all but my shearling Shetlands next year.

Reasoning: they don't have such big heads as the British white Texels, so easier lambing, they're woollier than Charollais, which matters where I live (oop North and oop high), and the blue colour is recessive so I should keep coloured fleeces in the lambs and the fleeces should still be worth having.

Plus if I have to look at a meat-breed tup, the blue Texels are slightly less ugly than average.

[Marches Farmer]

I think the key thing to look for, whatever the breed, is that the animal is NOT from show stock.  Breeding for appearance only exaggerates things that catch the eye in the showring but are, in my experience, generally undesirable for "real" life.  I think the Suffolk has been bred to be big-boned, for instance, and the lambs are so big the lambing process tires both them and the ewe, leaving the lambs too exhausted to suckle and the ewe with the undeserved reputation of being "too posh to push".