[ferretkeeper]

Anke, thank you very much, I will get a copy asap. I am a science person too, although not studied since Uni, but I like to know the exact reason why things do what they do - it's a revelation about the goat metabolism and something to really consider. I take it that's why Zeus went down so quickly.

I've ordered my meds online, hopefully it'll all come soon, they're pretty good usually. I'll save the heptavac for my sheep.

I have emailed the secretary of the GVS about finding a goat savvy vet near me, after seeing it in another topic. They couldn't find one less than an hour away but to have someone on the end of the phone who knows what to do is worth doing. I will 'suggest' my vets speak to the society too, but honestly it's like pulling teeth to get them to do anything - the vets themselves are genuinely nice but I just think they're over stretched and not willing to admit when they aren't confident on something. And if I've got a good goat book I can show it to them to help, they aren't likely to have a copy, there are so few goat keepers around. 

During my health plan meeting we spent a bit of time on the internet looking up he suitability of certain drugs for my alpacas for example and had to look up dosages on forums - they too need different doses to sheep etc even though the meds are still suitable. They also don't know much about my pigs, I've had to do so much research for them on my own too.

[Anke]

Why do you say panacur is useless?
 
Is that because of worm resistance or something peculiar to goats?

There is now widespread resistance in both sheep and goats (worms) to white wormers, the only time they may be useful if tapeworm is a problem, as Panacur is the only one dealing with that.
 
It is worth trying to get both your ground and the goats worm-free, so an annual wormcount to confirm your status is all that's needed. Fortunately I am at that stage, but it means any goat bought in would have a lengthy stay inside to make sure I wasn't importing any worms/eggs.... I have done that with the sheep unfortunately, as it isn't possible to keep them inside/separated in different paddock as much as goats.

[Blinkers]

PM'D you 
 

[Dogwalker]

Why do you say panacur is useless?
 
Is that because of worm resistance or something peculiar to goats?

There is now widespread resistance in both sheep and goats (worms) to white wormers, the only time they may be useful if tapeworm is a problem, as Panacur is the only one dealing with that.
 
It is worth trying to get both your ground and the goats worm-free, so an annual wormcount to confirm your status is all that's needed. Fortunately I am at that stage, but it means any goat bought in would have a lengthy stay inside to make sure I wasn't importing any worms/eggs.... I have done that with the sheep unfortunately, as it isn't possible to keep them inside/separated in different paddock as much as goats.

Thank you for clarifying. 
It was the generalised way it was said made me think it was something specific to goats not the worm resistance thats known about.

[ferretkeeper]

Update: came down this morning to another scouring goat and one off her food, so I have been and bought some oromec, can't wait for the parcels to come. By the time I came back the one off her food was scouring too, so they are now wormed and given kaolin for the tummy as per Wytsend's sound advice. I just hope this does the trick, they aren't looking too bright although one fought me and made me chase her to get the medicines down.

I see there's a different ingredient in Panacur as opposed to the oromec I've just used, is that the one with resistance? Are there any others to avoid? Agree I need to get the place worm free, I naively thought that because there hadn't been livestock here before us, except horses, and there were a good couple of years, maybe more before we put livestock on the land that there would be a low worm burden in the soil. Having only upped the stocking levels very recently I wasn't overly concerned, but now I'm paying for it.

I have taken poo samples to send off from the goat stable/yard and I'll do the same in the fields for the sheep and alpacas. I'm not sure I want to know how bad it is but it'll help me monitor levels.

I don't know that my vet suggested lambivac because they knew not to use a multi-agent vaccine, if they'd been worried about pasteurella they would have told me to use something like the ovipast and they didn't. Anyway it's done now, I will be changing vets after this or at the very least for goat advice.

[Anke]

Oramec (an ivermcetin based wormer) has to be given at TWICE the sheep dose to goats, don't know what breed yours are, it is all weight based. Less resistance to worms compared to panacur, longer milk withdrawal times though.
 
I would be very concerned though, if they have worms it is usually not such a sudden onset of scours and they shouldn't have lost their appetite..., what about fluke?
 
However, I have had three of my GG's (the BT's were unaffected) come down with sudden onset of diarrhoea at various times this summer, no milk, no appetite. No temperature either. One was very badly down with it, vet gave strong antibiotics and anti-inflammatory drugs (Duphratim and Loxicom). I thought she was going to die..., but in the evening she got up for some comfrey that I brought into the shed and then started to eat hay again slowly. She hadn't fought me when I drenched with water and Rehydion during the day.... So no idea what caused that, could have been bacterial or viral, like a (human) 24 hour bug?
 
On the plus sidewith goats and worms - you can have goats inside for a while (and it is coming up for winter) so you should be able to get the worm burden reduced. Also maybe keep a separate field for the goats for next year, so no new worms to settle down... much more difficult with sheep, unless you can house them over-winter?
 
We al make these mistakes as we start out - I did with both goats and sheep...

[ferretkeeper]

The two girls have perked up quite a bit, they are up and interested in what's going on, I suspect the tummy ache was making them miserable, at least they are more in the mood to fight now. I took some branches and that got them all eating and I have seen them drinking too, so fingers crossed. I did 1.5 x sheep dose for oramec, overestimated their weight - it's a lot to get them to swallow but got most of it in and will dose again in 10 days. 

There is a milk withdrawal period mentioned, is this intended for sheep milk for human consumption? And is the time for goats the same? I'm not selling any milk, it's just for me, gutted to have to buy in again.

I will treat for fluke as well, it's on my list of things to give, just trying to space treatments out so as not to overload them, and make them hate me, although a couple of ginger biscuits got me back in the good books today.

My goats are inside 90% of the time, but I understand I can track things in on my boots, and by other animals (chickens, a wandering lamb, even pigs have got in with them) so it should be quite straight forward to get their stable and yard clear. I've got some fencing improvements to make but then there'll be an area outside they can have to themselves, I'll keep everyone off it for winter, try and clean it up a bit.

I know everyone has these hiccups, and you sometimes have to learn the hard way. I felt helpless on Sunday, but today when the same situation presented itself I was so much better prepared for it, and maybe that has saved my other goats' lives. But I will be furious with myself forever for letting it happen at all.

[Anke]

If they have come onto your holding recently I would dose them for fluke, but not at the same time as for worms. Fasinex is the best fluke treatment, as it is the only that deals with all three stages of the damned things. It is difficult to be certain that they have fluke - the absence of eggs in the faecal samples doesn't mean anything, as they still could have adult flukes in their system.
 
Milk withdrawal times are for human consumption, but for Oramec there aren't any... I normally won't drink the milk for 7 days, but the pigs still get it (and love it). I would do another faecal test 10 days post worming - that way you can see if you have resistant worms. They may not need another dose if all is low. Watch out for lungworm in any samples - it causes anaemia and is not nice.
 
I don't know the dose for Fasinex or any fluke treatment, haven't needed to do it so far with the goats.
 
Let's hope your girls pick up - branches are usually good peace offerings here too. Haven't tried ginger biscuits yet...

[ferretkeeper]

Well yesterday didn't end well, vet call out late last night and one goat PTS. It was all very traumatic, not the quiet end my billy had. Needless to say straight to vet labs this morning for PM, and it came back as acute acidosis. So either these two were being greedy at feeding time, and they were bullying the younger/newer goats out of the trough, or it's from stealing lamb food when they escaped on Saturday.

The third goat seems to have overcome it, but she's so shy she wouldn't have been allowed to stay eating with the other two for long, a blessing really.

So greedy goats and my carelessness are the answer, it is so frustrating that it could have been prevented, by keeping the food secured/covered and the stable gate/hurdle tied closed so they couldn't get out - the billy had taken to headbutting the gate/hurdle and pushing them up so they opened, I usually tied them with twine but obviously forgot this time. Animals always know when you've taken your eye off the ball.

I am waiting for results of FECs and blood tests but the vet seems to think we're out of the woods, although I'll still go ahead and vaccinate as discussed, just for my peace of mind. And got a kid to bring up now, back to bottle feeding, she's a little angel, luckily she took to it quickly today.

Thank you all for the support, I really hope lots of new goat people read this and learn from my mistakes.

[mojocafa]

 

[Blinkers]

 

[Anke]

Oh, you didn't mention that they may have had some (or a lot) of concentrate... that may explain the sudden death too (and the sudden onset of diarrhoea).
 
But goats getting into feed they are not supposed to have happens to all of us from time to time... So sorry for your losses, but at least you have got an explanation.

[Dogwalker]

so sorry, a tough lesson.

[mab]

So sorry to hear about your billy, (don't usually read the goat section). A belated

[Mammyshaz]

These things happen in all aspects of keeping animals.