The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Goats => Topic started by: ferretkeeper on September 01, 2013, 09:46:37 pm
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So this morning he was quieter than usual, not really interested in me while dishing out breakfast, but up and about with the others, this was around 10ish - bit later than usual. I noticed he had a mucky bum but others have had the odd little bit of scouring in the past with no further problems. He had access to water and hay, so I decided to let him be and check on him later.
Well I ended up being really busy in the house decorating, the afternoon disappeared on me and by the time I went to check on him at tea time he was dead, stone cold and RM set in. His tail was quite wet looking with a bit of yellow mucous underneath, what could that be? How can this happen in such a short space of time?
I'm in shock, I couldn't even write this til now and the only reason I am is that I'm really worried about the others if it's some sort of infection...cocci or listeria has come up on my forum search. They are all OK, no signs of anything untoward, all eating their tea and generally getting under my feet as they do. What should I be looking out for as in early signs, and at what stage do you call the vet?
I certainly didn't think he was at that stage today and if something was so bad it could kill in a day what could a vet have done?
He was 100% fine yesterday, being a bit of an arse actually as the hormones were starting to kick in again, he sometimes challenged me when I went into their yard -although he didn't do that this morning he didn't look bad, or else I'd have been more concerned, and the books I have just said to give 24 hours of no concentrate for scours, if it doesn't improve to call the vet.
They all got out of their yard yesterday, could he have eaten something? If so why would he be the only one ill? I can't see that he's got into any food he shouldn't have, I caught him and another adult reaching for branches of the hedge but they all ate their goat mix that evening. He didn't look bloated or in any discomfort when he moved. But I should have taken more notice of him being a bit out of sorts, I know goats don't do being ill very well.
Sorry for the rambling...Absolutely gutted, he fathered a beautiful couple of kids this year, and I was just thinking about separating him out so I could go for a later kidding next year, now what do I do?
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Don't have any words of wisdom not being a goaty person but just want to say I'm so sorry your boy has died. It sounds like you care as well as a person can :hug:
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I'm really sorry too. What a shock for you. :bouquet:
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So sorry to hear this :hug:
My thought is if he went from quiet to dead within a day then even vet intervention is unlikely to change the result.
Such a shock for you :bouquet:
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Enterotoxeamia? When was his last Lambivac booster?
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Enterotoxaemia or Cocci....................both are sudden killers.
I would get the Vet to do a partial PM in case something nasty is brewing,particularly the above 2.
Vaccinate EVERBODY else for the clostridials quickly.
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thanks all for the replies and support. I'm numb still and kicking myself, the radar was obviously not working yesterday, although it seems I couldn't have done much for him.
Our vet wouldn't come out for PM, said I could take him to AH labs, but I think it's only going to say what I already know and the vet agreed that it is very likely clostridial.
I've recently done a farm health plan with the vet - as I've got animals from different places this year vaccinations and products used are all out of sync, and I wanted to get myself straight but I think I've overlooked my original billy and nanny in the confusion. I had it in my mind that I'd do them about now as the kid who was born here is now old enough to be vaccinated, and I'd have been all caught up, too late as it turned out.
For the goats (and sheep) I've bought in this year is it safe/wise/necessary to give lambivac again now if they've had it in the past 12 months already? Two of my new goats I believe were vaccinated in January, not sure what with, and three 7 month old kids (from somewhere else) had Heptavac in April.
Would it act like a booster and see me right for another 12 months? If I'm to avoid a repeat of this everyone needs to be having their jabs at the same time from the same bottle.
Is it like cats and dogs, if you miss the annual booster start again with 1st and 2nd doses? I've had the same problem with new pets joining the household and trying to get everyone vaccinated together is a nightmare.
My vet has said to use lambivac on all 7 of the goats (and alpacas and pigs, so won't waste a big bottle) but heptavac on the 20 sheep.
Why are there so many different bloody things out there that all do roughly the same thing but not?! It's no wonder I'm so confused, I'm an intelligent person but with the amount of choice is difficult for me to get my head around and because of that I hesitated, for fear of doing the wrong thing, rather than just vaccinating them with something so they are at least covered for the basics.
Can't wait to speak to the vet at the Carmarthenshire meet up this month...
Thanks again everyone
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Lambivac is the only vaccine licensed for goats, that's why your vet has said to do them with that. Plenty of people do use HeptavacP, but as your vet has recommended Lambivac, I'd go with that. Yes it is like cats and dogs, so if the vaccines have lapsed, or you are moving from one vaccine to the other, you need to do 1 dose, then another 4 weeks later. I have got this to do as well, I bought in a male kid who had one dose of Lambivac, and was given his second dose and a dose of ovipast for him. But we use HeptavacP on the rest of ours, so I'll have to start him off again now.
Beth[size=78%] [/size]
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Yes Lambivac for the goats and Heptavac for the sheep. Goats also need 6-monthly boosters with Lambivac (and Ovipast if you use it for pasteurella separately, as it is not part of Lambivac).
My goat kids will get their first dose at around 10 weeks, then the second one 4 weeks later. For early born kids I now give another booster in late autumn, as I lost a kid last year to enterotox despite him being within the 6 months vaccination cover (but maybe he did not take to it).
As you can get Lambivac only in 100ml bottles it seems quite expensive... but if you have a vaccination gun that holds the bottle I would just leave the whole caboodle together and leave it in the fridge. It doesn't get air in that way and stays cool. Same for Ovipast.
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Different parts of UK may need to treated differently.
I vaccinate all mine with Heptavac P as Pasteurella is a problem..............but I do mine every 4 months. There is now reason to doubt the efficiency of vaccine in goats being effective for 6 months as their metabolic rate is much faster than other farmed animals.
I also give the first dose at 6 weeks followed by 2nd at 9wks. I am sure there will be folks on here who will disagree but I have found this method suits my goats.
How old was your male ? The boys don't seem to live as long as the girls, in my experience.
Could there have been a possibility that he was anaemic..............was he up to date with worming ? Worms have caused a lot more problems this year.....these blood sucking pests can kill without signs being seen externally.
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Well I can't get Lambivac around here today, the only thing anyone had was Heptavac so that'll have to do. And yet more questions...
When you say Pasteurella is a problem Wytsend, from what I can gather it causes a respiratory infection in goats, are there other diseases it causes?
I realise I'll be covered by using Heptavac now so what would be the reason for going over to Lambivac in future?
Is Lambivac plus Ovipast the same as using heptavac? My vets have made no mention of using Ovipast, does that mean it's not prevalent here?
Anke, I've found Lambivac in 50ml bottles on hyperdrug website, that's where I'll be ordering from, but ovipast in 100ml or more and that is expensive. I think I'll use normal syringes as I can finish the bottle if I use it with the pigs as well, and won't need to buy yet another injector.
I'm beginning to feel like I'm getting duff information from the vets again, if several of you vaccinate more often than annually as suggested by vets then even if I had of done that when I was supposed to this could still have happened. Is this the usual thing of vets treating goats like sheep?
I'm going to worm now as well, again something I try not to do as a matter of course, but until I can get organised with the FECs it's better to do something than not. I lost an alpaca to a serious case of worms a couple of years ago, I hadn't had him long, a few months, he was one of my first big animals, and he was supposedly "up to date" with wormer but I now realise the only way to be sure is to FEC and treat accordingly.
I don't suppose this sort of testing and checking before dosing is possible for all ailments, or to know if a vaccine is still effective in the system, but I wish the seriousness of this one had been pointed out to me.
Is it ok to give them all these injections at the same time if I change injection sites or should I give it a few days between?
Poor Zeus wasn't even 18 months old, we got him as a kid last spring from Blinkers, and he turned into a lovely boy (except when hormones raged and he was a shitbag to me) but he proved himself to be a good stud so that made up for it.
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First of all, Pasteurella bacteria is in every goat located at the back of the throat................99% of the time it is benign................should the animal experience a trauma, it can erupt causing a dramatic pneumonia.
At 18ths old, my first reaction would be coccidiosis & a serious worm infection causing anaemia. Worms cause damage to the gut wall making it porous so protein leak causing general unwellness.
Goats don't do well with injectable wormers...........they are far better with oral wormers Ivermectin based.. Don't waste money on Panurcur , although licenced for goats it is useless most times.
Don't do everything at once..............worm first, allow 5/6 days then do 1st Heptavac. Allow 3 wks & do 2nd dose. Worm again 18 days after first dose.
Your Vet should have done a PM on the spot.........it would have been obvious if Pasteurella had overwhelmed him...........samples should have been sent for analysis to rule out Fluke, it has been a problem this year in areas not normally associated with it. Ok so this is history now but it does help you prepare if you are ever faced with such an issue again.
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Why do you say panacur is useless?
Is that because of worm resistance or something peculiar to goats?
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Wytsend, thank you for the clarification. The vet didn't leave her office, no-one offered to come out, you have to really kick off to get a call out to a live animal in distress, let alone a dead one. They really don't seem interested in small farms or anything that's not a cow, or maybe a sheep...not worth enough and I guess I don't spend enough there. Hence they know very little about any other animals.
They didn't seem concerned about any other animals I have and in fact I wonder if I prompted them to diagnosis, having read your suspected causes and described the situation to the vet.. the knackerman can't come til tomorrow but I guess it's too late to PM now? I'd have to get him to the AHVLA lab, vets aren't going to do it.
Or do I just drastically change my medicine regime and put this one down to experience (or lack of)?
My vets said I could use an injectable wormer, in fact the same one on all my animals, noromectin. I have previously used panacur at their suggestion, for ease of dispensing on their food, as I'm not that confident giving injections, but didn't like the vagueness of dosing...if it is useless then I may have a worm problem after all.
I had a wobble about these vets recently and now I'm convinced I'm not getting correct information or a good enough service. I'm getting fed up of doing all the leg work and the fact I can get better info from a forum?!
Hopefully it's not fluke, it is very common in our area in sheep, the land is wet, and resistance is a problem. But it's been incredibly dry and the goats don't go out to the main pasture, they stay in the yard and nibble hedges if they venture out at all - or is that another mistruth, could they still get it without grazing? I will treat them for fluke regardless when I do the sheep, due this month I think.
So I should stick with heptavac then? At no time was Pasteurella mentioned by the vets. Great.
I don't know what the local farm stores will have, they don't keep a lot in so if I can't get the oral noromectin can I do Heptavac first, seeing as I've got it here now? Or is it more important to get any worms? I'm going to get a poo sample tomorrow from the goats to send off for FEC and see if there is a worm burden, and I can check again post worming to see how effective the ivermectin has been.
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Your vet was right - goats do not take multi-agent vaccines very well and also do not suffer from most of the diseases that are covered with Heptavac. The two most important diseases you need to cover for are 1) enterotoxaemia (which is still the most likely cause of death for your billy, as cocci only rarely affects adults to that extent that they die within 24 hours) and 2) tetanus. Both are in Lambivac, and if you are concerned about pasteurella it is now recommended by the UK's most eminent goat vet (John Matthews - Diseases of the goat, new edition 2009) to use a separate pasteurella vaccine, like Ovipast.
Yes lots of people still use Heptavac - it is easier, cheaper etc - BUT research has moved on and it is not recommended anymore for goats. I know of goatkeepers who loose animals to pasteurella for example despite using Heptavac and annually boostering.
If you discuss this with your vet - s/he can always ring the goat veterinary society for some advice on 1) vaccination strategies for goats and 2) worming strategies. For example goats need a higher dose than sheep for most wormers (not all), as their metabolism is much faster.
I would recommend the John Matthews book - even if your are not keen on scientific books, (it is written for veterinary students and practitioners), it covers everything about goats, gives doses etc etc... I wouldn't be without mine! But I am a trained scientist and will always read up on things, I know that's not everyone's cup of tea.
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Anke, thank you very much, I will get a copy asap. I am a science person too, although not studied since Uni, but I like to know the exact reason why things do what they do - it's a revelation about the goat metabolism and something to really consider. I take it that's why Zeus went down so quickly.
I've ordered my meds online, hopefully it'll all come soon, they're pretty good usually. I'll save the heptavac for my sheep.
I have emailed the secretary of the GVS about finding a goat savvy vet near me, after seeing it in another topic. They couldn't find one less than an hour away but to have someone on the end of the phone who knows what to do is worth doing. I will 'suggest' my vets speak to the society too, but honestly it's like pulling teeth to get them to do anything - the vets themselves are genuinely nice but I just think they're over stretched and not willing to admit when they aren't confident on something. And if I've got a good goat book I can show it to them to help, they aren't likely to have a copy, there are so few goat keepers around.
During my health plan meeting we spent a bit of time on the internet looking up he suitability of certain drugs for my alpacas for example and had to look up dosages on forums - they too need different doses to sheep etc even though the meds are still suitable. They also don't know much about my pigs, I've had to do so much research for them on my own too.
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Why do you say panacur is useless?
Is that because of worm resistance or something peculiar to goats?
There is now widespread resistance in both sheep and goats (worms) to white wormers, the only time they may be useful if tapeworm is a problem, as Panacur is the only one dealing with that.
It is worth trying to get both your ground and the goats worm-free, so an annual wormcount to confirm your status is all that's needed. Fortunately I am at that stage, but it means any goat bought in would have a lengthy stay inside to make sure I wasn't importing any worms/eggs.... I have done that with the sheep unfortunately, as it isn't possible to keep them inside/separated in different paddock as much as goats.
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PM'D you :'(
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Why do you say panacur is useless?
Is that because of worm resistance or something peculiar to goats?
There is now widespread resistance in both sheep and goats (worms) to white wormers, the only time they may be useful if tapeworm is a problem, as Panacur is the only one dealing with that.
It is worth trying to get both your ground and the goats worm-free, so an annual wormcount to confirm your status is all that's needed. Fortunately I am at that stage, but it means any goat bought in would have a lengthy stay inside to make sure I wasn't importing any worms/eggs.... I have done that with the sheep unfortunately, as it isn't possible to keep them inside/separated in different paddock as much as goats.
Thank you for clarifying.
It was the generalised way it was said made me think it was something specific to goats not the worm resistance thats known about.
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Update: came down this morning to another scouring goat and one off her food, so I have been and bought some oromec, can't wait for the parcels to come. By the time I came back the one off her food was scouring too, so they are now wormed and given kaolin for the tummy as per Wytsend's sound advice. I just hope this does the trick, they aren't looking too bright although one fought me and made me chase her to get the medicines down.
I see there's a different ingredient in Panacur as opposed to the oromec I've just used, is that the one with resistance? Are there any others to avoid? Agree I need to get the place worm free, I naively thought that because there hadn't been livestock here before us, except horses, and there were a good couple of years, maybe more before we put livestock on the land that there would be a low worm burden in the soil. Having only upped the stocking levels very recently I wasn't overly concerned, but now I'm paying for it.
I have taken poo samples to send off from the goat stable/yard and I'll do the same in the fields for the sheep and alpacas. I'm not sure I want to know how bad it is but it'll help me monitor levels.
I don't know that my vet suggested lambivac because they knew not to use a multi-agent vaccine, if they'd been worried about pasteurella they would have told me to use something like the ovipast and they didn't. Anyway it's done now, I will be changing vets after this or at the very least for goat advice.
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Oramec (an ivermcetin based wormer) has to be given at TWICE the sheep dose to goats, don't know what breed yours are, it is all weight based. Less resistance to worms compared to panacur, longer milk withdrawal times though.
I would be very concerned though, if they have worms it is usually not such a sudden onset of scours and they shouldn't have lost their appetite..., what about fluke?
However, I have had three of my GG's (the BT's were unaffected) come down with sudden onset of diarrhoea at various times this summer, no milk, no appetite. No temperature either. One was very badly down with it, vet gave strong antibiotics and anti-inflammatory drugs (Duphratim and Loxicom). I thought she was going to die..., but in the evening she got up for some comfrey that I brought into the shed and then started to eat hay again slowly. She hadn't fought me when I drenched with water and Rehydion during the day.... So no idea what caused that, could have been bacterial or viral, like a (human) 24 hour bug?
On the plus sidewith goats and worms - you can have goats inside for a while (and it is coming up for winter) so you should be able to get the worm burden reduced. Also maybe keep a separate field for the goats for next year, so no new worms to settle down... much more difficult with sheep, unless you can house them over-winter?
We al make these mistakes as we start out - I did with both goats and sheep...
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The two girls have perked up quite a bit, they are up and interested in what's going on, I suspect the tummy ache was making them miserable, at least they are more in the mood to fight now. I took some branches and that got them all eating and I have seen them drinking too, so fingers crossed. I did 1.5 x sheep dose for oramec, overestimated their weight - it's a lot to get them to swallow but got most of it in and will dose again in 10 days.
There is a milk withdrawal period mentioned, is this intended for sheep milk for human consumption? And is the time for goats the same? I'm not selling any milk, it's just for me, gutted to have to buy in again.
I will treat for fluke as well, it's on my list of things to give, just trying to space treatments out so as not to overload them, and make them hate me, although a couple of ginger biscuits got me back in the good books today.
My goats are inside 90% of the time, but I understand I can track things in on my boots, and by other animals (chickens, a wandering lamb, even pigs have got in with them) so it should be quite straight forward to get their stable and yard clear. I've got some fencing improvements to make but then there'll be an area outside they can have to themselves, I'll keep everyone off it for winter, try and clean it up a bit.
I know everyone has these hiccups, and you sometimes have to learn the hard way. I felt helpless on Sunday, but today when the same situation presented itself I was so much better prepared for it, and maybe that has saved my other goats' lives. But I will be furious with myself forever for letting it happen at all.
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If they have come onto your holding recently I would dose them for fluke, but not at the same time as for worms. Fasinex is the best fluke treatment, as it is the only that deals with all three stages of the damned things. It is difficult to be certain that they have fluke - the absence of eggs in the faecal samples doesn't mean anything, as they still could have adult flukes in their system.
Milk withdrawal times are for human consumption, but for Oramec there aren't any... I normally won't drink the milk for 7 days, but the pigs still get it (and love it). I would do another faecal test 10 days post worming - that way you can see if you have resistant worms. They may not need another dose if all is low. Watch out for lungworm in any samples - it causes anaemia and is not nice.
I don't know the dose for Fasinex or any fluke treatment, haven't needed to do it so far with the goats.
Let's hope your girls pick up - branches are usually good peace offerings here too. Haven't tried ginger biscuits yet...
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Well yesterday didn't end well, vet call out late last night and one goat PTS. It was all very traumatic, not the quiet end my billy had. Needless to say straight to vet labs this morning for PM, and it came back as acute acidosis. So either these two were being greedy at feeding time, and they were bullying the younger/newer goats out of the trough, or it's from stealing lamb food when they escaped on Saturday.
The third goat seems to have overcome it, but she's so shy she wouldn't have been allowed to stay eating with the other two for long, a blessing really.
So greedy goats and my carelessness are the answer, it is so frustrating that it could have been prevented, by keeping the food secured/covered and the stable gate/hurdle tied closed so they couldn't get out - the billy had taken to headbutting the gate/hurdle and pushing them up so they opened, I usually tied them with twine but obviously forgot this time. Animals always know when you've taken your eye off the ball.
I am waiting for results of FECs and blood tests but the vet seems to think we're out of the woods, although I'll still go ahead and vaccinate as discussed, just for my peace of mind. And got a kid to bring up now, back to bottle feeding, she's a little angel, luckily she took to it quickly today.
Thank you all for the support, I really hope lots of new goat people read this and learn from my mistakes.
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:hug:
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:hug: :bouquet: :hug:
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Oh, you didn't mention that they may have had some (or a lot) of concentrate... that may explain the sudden death too (and the sudden onset of diarrhoea).
But goats getting into feed they are not supposed to have happens to all of us from time to time... So sorry for your losses, but at least you have got an explanation.
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so sorry, a tough lesson. :hug:
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So sorry to hear about your billy, (don't usually read the goat section). A belated :bouquet:
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These things happen in all aspects of keeping animals. :hug:
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So sorry for your losses, a lesson for us all. :bouquet:
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Yep as the saying goes where you have livestock you will have deadstock ;)
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I lost 3 goats and 2 kids to worms because I listened to the vet telling me Panacur was the best wormer for goats. I had to pay for a post mortem but it confirmed worms were the killer. Vets just don't deal with goats often enough. I was gutted, should have trusted my instincts and insisted the Panacur wasn't working. Once it was proved it was worms the vet suggested I use dectomax which also gets rid of lice and I haven't had any problems since. I vaccinate with heptavacP but only as I have a handful of sheep as well so it seems daft to throw away half a bottle and buy something else for the goats.
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In defence of Panacur - the first year I had my goats I wormed with Panacur, did the job well. However 2nd year it started to fail (10days post worming FEC still had quite high egg counts) and I have used Oramec since, now (for time being :fc: ) worm-free.
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Yes it worked for me initially but you shouldn't get resistance that quickly and I was careful not to give it too often as I didn't want to build up a resistance. I would definitely not recommend it but I've had a bad experience, maybe other people have had no issues with it.