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Author Topic: My billy has died suddenly!  (Read 10532 times)

ferretkeeper

  • Joined May 2013
  • Carmarthenshire
    • Brecon View Farm
    • Facebook
My billy has died suddenly!
« on: September 01, 2013, 09:46:37 pm »
So this morning he was quieter than usual, not really interested in me while dishing out breakfast, but up and about with the others, this was around 10ish - bit later than usual. I noticed he had a mucky bum but others have had the odd little bit of scouring in the past with no further problems. He had access to water and hay, so I decided to let him be and check on him later.

Well I ended up being really busy in the house decorating, the afternoon disappeared on me and by the time I went to check on him at tea time he was dead, stone cold and RM set in. His tail was quite wet looking with a bit of yellow mucous underneath, what could that be? How can this happen in such a short space of time?

I'm in shock, I couldn't even write this til now and the only reason I am is that I'm really worried about the others if it's some sort of infection...cocci or listeria has come up on my forum search. They are all OK, no signs of anything untoward, all eating their tea and generally getting under my feet as they do. What should I be looking out for as in early signs, and at what stage do you call the vet?

I certainly didn't think he was at that stage today and if something was so bad it could kill in a day what could a vet have done?

He was 100% fine yesterday, being a bit of an arse actually as the hormones were starting to kick in again, he sometimes challenged me when I went into their yard -although he didn't do that this morning he didn't look bad, or else I'd have been more concerned, and the books I have just said to give 24 hours of no concentrate for scours, if it doesn't improve to call the vet.

They all got out of their yard yesterday, could he have eaten something? If so why would he be the only one ill? I can't see that he's got into any food he shouldn't have, I caught him and another adult reaching for branches of the hedge but they all ate their goat mix that evening. He didn't look bloated or in any discomfort when he moved. But I should have taken more notice of him being a bit out of sorts, I know goats don't do being ill very well.

Sorry for the rambling...Absolutely gutted, he fathered a beautiful couple of kids this year, and I was just thinking about separating him out so I could go for a later kidding next year, now what do I do?
breconviewfarm.co.uk Rare breed, free range.

Pedwardine

  • Joined Feb 2012
  • South Lincolnshire
Re: My billy has died suddenly!
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2013, 10:13:16 pm »
Don't have any words of wisdom not being a goaty person but just want to say I'm so sorry your boy has died. It sounds like you care as well as a person can  :hug:

Bumblebear

  • Joined Jun 2012
  • Norfolk
    • http://southwellski.blogspot.co.uk/
Re: My billy has died suddenly!
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2013, 10:43:17 pm »
I'm really sorry too.  What a shock for you.  :bouquet:

Mammyshaz

  • Joined Feb 2012
  • Durham
Re: My billy has died suddenly!
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2013, 11:20:11 pm »
So sorry to hear this  :hug:
My thought is if he went from quiet to dead within a day then even vet intervention is unlikely to change the result.
Such a shock for you  :bouquet:



Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: My billy has died suddenly!
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2013, 06:15:30 am »
Enterotoxeamia? When was his last Lambivac booster?

wytsend

  • Joined Oct 2010
  • Okehampton
Re: My billy has died suddenly!
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2013, 08:08:15 am »
Enterotoxaemia or Cocci....................both are sudden killers.
I would get the Vet to do a partial PM in case something nasty is brewing,particularly the above 2.
Vaccinate EVERBODY else for the clostridials quickly.

ferretkeeper

  • Joined May 2013
  • Carmarthenshire
    • Brecon View Farm
    • Facebook
Re: My billy has died suddenly!
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2013, 09:57:15 am »
thanks all for the replies and support. I'm numb still and kicking myself, the radar was obviously not working yesterday, although it seems I couldn't have done much for him.

Our vet wouldn't come out for PM, said I could take him to AH labs, but I think it's only going to say what I already know and the vet agreed that it is very likely clostridial.

I've recently done a farm health plan with the vet  - as I've got animals from different places this year vaccinations and products used are all out of sync, and I wanted to get myself straight but I think I've overlooked my original billy and nanny in the confusion. I had it in my mind that I'd do them about now as the kid who was born here is now old enough to be vaccinated, and I'd have been all caught up, too late as it turned out.

For the goats (and sheep) I've bought in this year is it safe/wise/necessary to give lambivac again now if they've had it in the past 12 months already? Two of my new goats I believe were vaccinated in January, not sure what with, and three 7 month old kids (from somewhere else) had Heptavac in April.

Would it act like a booster and see me right for another 12 months? If I'm to avoid a repeat of this everyone needs to be having their jabs at the same time from the same bottle.

Is it like cats and dogs, if you miss the annual booster start again with 1st and 2nd doses? I've had the same problem with new pets joining the household and trying to get everyone vaccinated together is a nightmare.

My vet has said to use lambivac on all 7 of the goats (and alpacas and pigs, so won't waste a big bottle) but heptavac on the 20 sheep.

Why are there so many different bloody things out there that all do roughly the same thing but not?! It's no wonder I'm so confused, I'm an intelligent person but with the amount of choice is difficult for me to get my head around and because of that I hesitated, for fear of doing the wrong thing, rather than just vaccinating them with something so they are at least covered for the basics.   

Can't wait to speak to the vet at the Carmarthenshire meet up this month...

Thanks again everyone
breconviewfarm.co.uk Rare breed, free range.

ballingall

  • Moderator
  • Joined Sep 2008
  • Avonbridge, Falkirk
Re: My billy has died suddenly!
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2013, 12:40:24 pm »
Lambivac is the only vaccine licensed for goats, that's why your vet has said to do them with that. Plenty of people do use HeptavacP, but as your vet has recommended Lambivac, I'd go with that. Yes it is like cats and dogs, so if the vaccines have lapsed, or you are moving from one vaccine to the other, you need to do 1 dose, then another 4 weeks later. I have got this to do as well, I bought in a male kid who had one dose of Lambivac, and was given his second dose and a dose of ovipast for him. But we use HeptavacP on the rest of ours, so I'll have to start him off again now.


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Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: My billy has died suddenly!
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2013, 01:58:55 pm »
Yes Lambivac for the goats and Heptavac for the sheep. Goats also need 6-monthly boosters with Lambivac (and Ovipast if you use it for pasteurella separately, as it is not part of Lambivac).
 
My goat kids will get their first dose at around 10 weeks, then the second one 4 weeks later. For early born kids I now give another booster in late autumn, as I lost a kid last year to enterotox despite him being within the 6 months vaccination cover (but maybe he did not take to it).
 
As you can get Lambivac only in 100ml bottles it seems quite expensive... but if you have a vaccination gun that holds the bottle I would just leave the whole caboodle together and leave it in the fridge. It doesn't get air in that way and stays cool. Same for Ovipast.

wytsend

  • Joined Oct 2010
  • Okehampton
Re: My billy has died suddenly!
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2013, 04:07:17 pm »
Different parts of UK may need to treated differently.
I vaccinate all mine with Heptavac P as Pasteurella is a problem..............but I do mine every 4 months.  There is now reason to doubt the efficiency of vaccine in goats being effective for 6 months as their metabolic rate is much faster than other farmed animals.
I also give the first dose at 6 weeks followed by 2nd at 9wks.    I am sure there will be folks on here who will disagree but I have found this method suits my goats.
How old was your male ?   The boys don't seem to live as long as the girls, in my experience.   
Could there have been a possibility that he was anaemic..............was he up to date with worming ?   Worms have caused a lot more problems this year.....these blood sucking pests can kill without signs being seen externally.

ferretkeeper

  • Joined May 2013
  • Carmarthenshire
    • Brecon View Farm
    • Facebook
Re: My billy has died suddenly!
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2013, 06:03:05 pm »
Well I can't get Lambivac around here today, the only thing anyone had was Heptavac so that'll have to do. And yet more questions...

When you say Pasteurella is a problem Wytsend, from what I can gather it causes a respiratory infection in goats, are there other diseases it causes?

I realise I'll be covered by using Heptavac now so what would be the reason for going over to Lambivac in future?

Is Lambivac plus Ovipast the same as using heptavac? My vets have made no mention of using Ovipast, does that mean it's not prevalent here?

Anke, I've found Lambivac in 50ml bottles on hyperdrug website, that's where I'll be ordering from, but ovipast in 100ml or more and that is expensive. I think I'll use normal syringes as I can finish the bottle if I use it with the pigs as well, and won't need to buy yet another injector.

I'm beginning to feel like I'm getting duff information from the vets again, if several of you vaccinate more often than annually as suggested by vets then even if I had of done that when I was supposed to this could still have  happened. Is this the usual thing of vets treating goats like sheep?

I'm going to worm now as well, again something I try not to do as a matter of course, but until I can get organised with the FECs it's better to do something than not. I lost an alpaca to a serious case of worms a couple of years ago, I hadn't had him long, a few months, he was one of my first big animals, and he was supposedly "up to date" with wormer but I now realise the only way to be sure is to FEC and treat accordingly.

I don't suppose this sort of testing and checking before dosing is possible for all ailments, or to know if a vaccine is still effective in the system, but I wish the seriousness of this one had been pointed out to me.

Is it ok to give them all these injections at the same time if I change injection sites or should I give it a few days between?

Poor Zeus wasn't even 18 months old, we got him as a kid last spring from Blinkers, and he turned into a lovely boy (except when hormones raged and he was a shitbag to me) but he proved himself to be a good stud so that made up for it.
breconviewfarm.co.uk Rare breed, free range.

wytsend

  • Joined Oct 2010
  • Okehampton
Re: My billy has died suddenly!
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2013, 07:31:57 pm »
First of all, Pasteurella bacteria is in every goat located at the back of the throat................99% of the time it is benign................should the animal experience a trauma, it can erupt causing a dramatic pneumonia.
At 18ths old, my first reaction would be coccidiosis & a serious worm infection causing anaemia.  Worms cause damage to the gut wall making it porous so protein leak causing general unwellness.
Goats don't do well with injectable wormers...........they are far better with oral wormers Ivermectin based..    Don't waste money on Panurcur  , although licenced for goats it is useless most times.
Don't do everything at once..............worm first, allow 5/6 days then do 1st Heptavac.  Allow 3 wks & do 2nd dose.   Worm again 18 days after first dose.
Your Vet should have done a PM on the spot.........it would have been obvious if Pasteurella had overwhelmed him...........samples should have been sent for analysis to rule out Fluke,  it has been a problem this year in areas not normally associated with it.   Ok so this is history now but it does help you prepare if you are ever faced with such an issue again.

Dogwalker

  • Joined Nov 2011
Re: My billy has died suddenly!
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2013, 09:38:29 pm »
Why do you say panacur is useless?
 
Is that because of worm resistance or something peculiar to goats?

ferretkeeper

  • Joined May 2013
  • Carmarthenshire
    • Brecon View Farm
    • Facebook
Re: My billy has died suddenly!
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2013, 09:49:55 pm »
Wytsend, thank you for the clarification. The vet didn't leave her office, no-one offered to come out, you have to really kick off to get a call out to a live animal in distress, let alone a dead one. They really don't seem interested in small farms or anything that's not a cow, or maybe a sheep...not worth enough and I guess I don't spend enough there. Hence they know very little about any other animals.

They didn't seem concerned about any other animals I have and in fact I wonder if I prompted them to diagnosis, having read your suspected causes and described the situation to the vet.. the knackerman can't come til tomorrow but I guess it's too late to PM now? I'd have to get him to the AHVLA lab, vets aren't going to do it.

Or do I just drastically change my medicine regime and put this one down to experience (or lack of)?

My vets said I could use an injectable wormer, in fact the same one on all my animals, noromectin. I have previously  used panacur at their suggestion, for ease of dispensing on their food, as I'm not that confident giving injections, but didn't like the vagueness of dosing...if it is useless then I may have a worm problem after all.

I had a wobble about these vets recently and now I'm convinced I'm not getting correct information or a good enough service. I'm getting fed up of doing all the leg work and the fact I can get better info from a forum?!

Hopefully it's not fluke, it is very common in our area in sheep, the land is wet, and resistance is a problem. But it's been incredibly dry and the goats don't go out to the main pasture, they stay in the yard and nibble hedges if they venture out at all - or is that another mistruth, could they still get it without grazing? I will treat them for fluke regardless when I do the sheep, due this month I think. 

So I should stick with heptavac then? At no time was Pasteurella mentioned by the vets. Great.

I don't know what the local farm stores will have, they don't keep a lot in so if I can't get the oral noromectin can I do Heptavac first, seeing as I've got it here now? Or is it more important to get any worms? I'm going to get a poo sample tomorrow from the goats to send off for FEC and see if there is a worm burden, and I can check again post worming to see how effective the ivermectin has been.
breconviewfarm.co.uk Rare breed, free range.

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: My billy has died suddenly!
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2013, 10:09:59 pm »
Your vet was right - goats do not take multi-agent vaccines very well and also do not suffer from most of the diseases that are covered with Heptavac. The two most important diseases you need to cover for are 1) enterotoxaemia (which is still the most likely cause of death for your billy, as cocci only rarely affects adults to that extent that they die within 24 hours) and 2) tetanus. Both are in Lambivac, and if you are concerned about pasteurella it is now recommended by the UK's most eminent goat vet (John Matthews - Diseases of the goat, new edition 2009) to use a separate pasteurella vaccine, like Ovipast.
 
Yes lots of people still use Heptavac - it is easier, cheaper etc - BUT research has moved on and it is not recommended anymore for goats. I know of goatkeepers who loose animals to pasteurella for example despite using Heptavac and annually boostering.
 
If you discuss this with your vet - s/he can always ring the goat veterinary society for some advice on 1) vaccination strategies for goats and 2) worming strategies. For example goats need a higher dose than sheep for most wormers (not all), as their metabolism is much faster.
 
I would recommend the John Matthews book - even if your are not keen on scientific books, (it is written for veterinary students and practitioners), it covers everything about goats, gives doses etc etc... I wouldn't be without mine! But I am a trained scientist and will always read up on things, I know that's not everyone's cup of tea.

 
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