[Tullywood Farm]

I am doing a Social Science diploma, and the modules talk about Crime and imprisonment, both of which are escalating out of control in many countries. 

It seems that the UN and other " Human rights Campaigners" have worked out with many governments that Imprisonment is not going to be an option in the future they believe that this has to be changed for several reasons.

All criminal acts will be dealt with by councelling, mentoring and changing mindset techniques to make people change and wish to comply with acceptable social norms of their culture and country.

Can you see this working with the mental cases that kill, rape, rob,and terrorise 

Its common knowledge that most paedophiles and rapists come out of prison and do it again - even though they have been released because they are "rehabilitated and have gone through a change"  this is why we need prisons - to keep them IN.

These people that are advising these changes to crime and punishment must believe that all people are capable of being "normal sheep".
They have not experienced dealing with non-confirmists, schitzophrenics and others that will not/can not change - the problem is in their make-up and that's that - no amount of talking to them will change it!  Most of them are clever enough to make you believe they have changed just to get released.

The streets will not be safe if this goes ahead - its a cop out for the future when things get really bad 

The Government can say that it is against human rights to put someone behind bars, and I suspect no-one will react in great numbers once it is said.
The courts and prison systems cannot cope with it now - let alone when the influx starts for real, and major problems start in major cities all over.

What are your thoughts on this?

Julie

[jameslindsay]

Hi Julie, I can see this topic setting a few fireworks off

[sandy]

Where is it all going? Some people need to be kept under restraint, they cannot always help how they are but put others at risk ALL the time!!!!! I used to visit Hostels on a regular basis and found it odd how many ex child sex offenders were placed in Hostels overlooking Schools??? THe internet must help a great deal in grooming young people!!!! As I said in other posts, the victim always comes off worse and the criminal gets loads of help!!!!!!

[smiffy]

the problem is, many of the do gooders have no idea what pain really is!!!

they come from their cusioned world, where nothing bad ever happens and cant understand that some people are just plain bad!

most people have a something in built that tells them right from wrong.... its a moral code that is built in through good parenting, it might even be genetic coding .... who knows, but its there.

with all the bad parenting and cr*p kids see on the TV this behaviour we take to be normal is not being passed on to the next generation.

When i was a kid we respected adults. kids these days dont give a sh*t, because the parents, teachers, do gooders etc defend and reward bad behavour.

Last year i was in school talking with my daughters art teacher and my 14 year old son ran through the corridor....he did not see me.

Another teacher shoulted him, and he gobbed back. I knew his voice and turned round and slapped his checky face! and told him i never wanted to hear him talking to an adult like that.

He appologised and said, 'I didnt know you were their'

that was obvious!!!!

the teachers were a bit taken back. I also told all his friends who were following to tun=rn round and go back the way they came. No checky comments 

any way i am losing track..............

If a do gooders child is raped and murdered would they change their thoughts??? I think so

As far as i am concerned punishment now doesnt fit the crimes. People should be scared to offend.

I for one think capital punishment should be brought back.

If a pig kills her litter, do you give her another chance?

If a dog kills a child do you lock it in a kennel for 10 years?

People should be treated the same!!

If someone killed or seriously hurt one of my family, I dont think I would leave the punishment to the courts

[rustyme]

This is a time bomb just waiting to go off. Once again we hit the £ thing again . It costs millions to keep people locked up and they could be treated much better in the community ....WTF ?  Haven't we heard this crap before ? Care in the community ? What did that do for the mentally ill....left most of them roaming the streets of all the big towns and cities of the UK . The same will happen to criminals that are 'treated' outside of prison. They will continue to commit more and more crimes with even more disregard than they have now. I have two brothers that have committed armed robbery , one has come out, after doing god knows how many years , and stayed out . He knew the last time he was inside, that he couldn't do anymore time . If he came in again he wouldn't be comming out !!!  So he changed ,and is now holding down three different jobs , trying to make money any LEGAL way he can . He grows his own food and wants to keep bees , and is a fantastic artist, that is one of his jobs. The other ...oh my god ...he must have done 20 plus years inside now . He had a good career in the army, he qualified as a chef first grade. Then it all went tits up for some reason , and has done nothing but armed robbery on Post offices etc since. The last time he went down for a load of jobs he got life, as they had started the three times and your out crap   . Somewhat copying the US three time loser thing . Anyway, the thing is, no matter how long he does or how many times he goes in , he will always do it again when he comes out . Prior to him becoming a category A prisoner , he would get days off a weekend at home here and there. While on these weekend breaks , he would have jobs lined up ready to go and do . All worked out inside with other thieves and shite  just like himself. The money he stole he would pay into his bank account and then when he went back inside he would get the governor to draw money out of his account to pay the drug pushers in the nick so that he didn't get killed.....This went on for years. The prison workers know this goes on ,  but they want a quiet life , and they know that without the drugs in nick they cannot cope with the prisoners in there. So the whole system keeps on rolling on , as corrupt as the government . We now have the added bonus of east European criminals here too . Murderers,  rapists , paedophiles  from all over the EU are walking around committing more offences over here . I can think of 4 that I heard of in the last few months . If they cut prisoners down and 'treat' them on the outside , then I am sorry we really are up that creek without a paddle . Armageddon really will be just round the corner. My brother has been diagnosed as a sociopath  , and no amount of shite, soft talking mumbo jumbo crap, from any so called do gooder will change him, it has all been tried and failed, again and again . He is a really nice bloke , and I love him as I love all my brothers and sisters , but I don't kid myself , he is a piece of crap and always will be . The best place for him is PRISON , where he can't shove 12 bore shotguns up little old ladies noses and threaten to blow their f**king heads off. Would he do it ? if they didn't give him the money ...yes he would ...and think nothing of it . As I say, I love the little s**t to bits, and wish he could be like he used to be . But, as I always do when I talk about him , I am crying my eyes out as I write this , because I know he HAS to stay where he is . Where he is safe and so are  Innocent law abiding people . Saying that, last year he was eligible for parole. I have no idea if he has been given it or not ?  Phew ... some things can p**s me off , but this subject brings me to my knees . Wasn't it said elsewhere "you can choose your friends, but not your family !!!"


cheers

Russ

[Tullywood Farm]

Smiffy,

You are so right.

My beautiful Golden Retriever whom I loved, Jack, took a large bite out of my daughters leg when he and she were 4 years old.
The nurses at the hospital said not to hurt the dog, even when my daughter had to have surgery to fix the tendons in her leg and went through agony.

The ISPCA said it was Rage Syndrome because he was too purely bred. His pedigree was in the Hall of Fame in the Handbook of Golden Retrievers.

I asked Joe to take him to the vets and put him to sleep as I did not want anyone to go through what we had with our little girl.
He wouldn't waste the money - he took him hunting and shot him. Jack did not suffer but neither will anyone else. 
Yes it hurts - the nurses were wrong- he had to go.

I also believe in the Death Penalty when it is proven with NO DOUBT and NO SET UP can have been made in order to prove the persons guilt.  There have been a lot of mistakes in the past -that are really dreadful and I can see why people are reluctant to take a stance on this.

Then there are people like Peter Sutcliffe who are draining the system to keep him alive, a serial killer, who should be dealt with like my Jack was.

Thing is, Smiffy, people are all different, and unfortunately do not see thing the way that we do.

Countries where they still stone people ( the villagers usually do the deed) for serious offences are called barbaric, backward and worse, but they have very few people commiting crimes, and it is safe to go out on the streets.  If you are caught stealing they chop your hand off - a good deterrent that cuts crime down for sure.

Mexico City would be a good example of a lawless society, people are murdered and raped on the street on a daily basis and nothing gets done - police are too busy looking after the big business folk, and moving money, crime is ignored.

This is a very tough subject for everyone to agree on - but it pisses me off, when a small country like Ireland can have people vote on the subject of abortion, and the people vote against it, on religious grounds mainly.

I was not able to vote at the time, but I can see that having a choice of the above would be necessary, in the case of say, Rape, where you do not want the child for many reasons.  If this happens to you in Ireland you would have to travel to the UK for an abortion.
Also this opens up place for non-scrupulous doctors to perform back street abortions and cause all sorts of problems, or for say, young girls to take several concoctions, in order to kill their unwanted, teen pregnancy.  There are always more ways than one to look at things.

I used to listen to these so called Politicians on the radio saying how bad it would be if we voted yes to abortion - I wondered how many had eaten an egg with their breakfast - is that abortion - it could have been a chick if they had not devoured it?  Another way of looking at the same thing - but we are not so sensitive about animals as we are about people.

Yet we, the public, do not get a say on crime and punishment, it is a decision that is left to the silver spoon fed rich and cushioned few with no bloody idea of the hurt and pain that is caused to people and families because of the lack of a fair and firm justice system.  One that is not full of namby pamby soppy souls who are out of touch with reality and want to save everyone and convert them to whatever !!.

The thing is - you have to be prepared to see the situation from all sides:
You as each person affected by the situation, and that is hard for most mindsets.

I believe that we are all entitled to our opinions, beliefs, morals, values and everything else.

But the main thing we should be entitled to is to be Protected against the non-conformists who Rape, Murder, and commit other seriously unacceptable crimes.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts

Julie

[Hilarysmum]

Not for one second decrying prison.  If they are locked up they cant do harm to those outside!  However, many people do not empathise, therefore do not see crime as hurting others.  My sister's very middle class, good income, friend shop lifts for the thrill.  She isnt hurting anyone, she is not stealing, the shops dont miss out they claim on the insurance.  She fails to grasp that each time she takes something, she is increasing the insurance claim the shop must make, leading to their insurance premiums increasing until someone is made redundant to cover the costs.

The point esculates in bigger crimes, from the chap who never considers the psychological damage he does by pointing a shot gun at an unarmed post office worker, to the one in permanent denial that he raped his victim - she was just being coy when she said no.  etc. etc.

The idea of prison terrifies me, yet is not the reason I am honest.  Thats in built conscience.  I do know of people who are able to justify, or to deny their responsibility when things happen.  
I dont know the answers.  

[Hilarysmum]

Julie : stoning is barbaric even a murderer deserves dignity.  Otherwise we as the onlookers are as bad.

Stoning is also practised on women who have babies out of childbirth.  In one case the victim was raped!  This has been an ongoing case regularly broadcast on radio 4.

[Tullywood Farm]

Hello Russ,

Sorry to stir your emotions here - and thank you so much for sharing that important stance, the truth is what you describe - and that is what people do not want to hear or see, the hurt, the love, the fact that some people will not change.

I have also felt what you describe, and been judged and victimised because of having a relative of mine do time, and have their name in the paper for being involved in a small way in a bank robbery in the 1950's.
Crime will always be with us, there will always be rich and poor people, and wealth will always be distributed unfairly, thats life.

The hurt and love that we feel for family members caught up in the system is not easy to bear, and mixed emotions well up inside us all - We cannot live life for our loved ones, we can not change them, all we can do is try to understand them and their situation, and this you have done.

Family are strange - I used to feel that I didn't belong in mine, that I was different, and it was always a fight to be liked and loved.  Parents never backed me up in decisions on career, friendships (girls and boys 11-16) or partnerships, and were always negative and sometimes quite nasty.

It was only inrecent years that I was sharing a couple of stories with a lovely lady I met in Dublin.
"You were born into the wrong family" she said,
"If you had been my dads daughter he would have loved you to go into art and encouraged you all the way, dad was always wanting us to do that but none of us were artistic".

Then I realised, all my life I had tried to please my family and do what they wanted me to do, act like they wanted me to act, and that was not me - maybe I was born into the wrong family - I did not have to be what they wanted to be - I could be myself - unique - different - individual.


As mentioned elsewhere
You cannot choose your family, but you can choose whether to have them in your life or not.  

This is the way I have dealt successfully with my problem family members.
I do not get on with my Mother or Sister, they have hurt me in the past.  
So I chose a few years ago to tell them that I do not want to see them again, and that they are welcome to believe what they like, but their thoughts and words will not affect me, as they are no longer a part of my life.
I am not bitter or twisted - just without the grief they cause with their opinions and words now. I still love them, but do not need their acceptance or approval, I am my own person and I am not what they think or feel - that is their problem and not mine.

I don't want to lose the thread of this subject, as I believe that it is important that people know what is being planned for the future on this, but at the same time, as James said, it is going to cause some fireworks.
I just hope that getting it off our chests heals our wounds -as often is the case if you share things.
Julie

[Tullywood Farm]

Hello Hilarys Mum,

Yes, stoning is barbaric, to us.  Its all a culture thing.  I do not wish that stoning happens here, but I have been studying what happens in African countries, and Indian, and this is the way they deal with things - but again the system can be as corrupt as ours is - because of religion and its beliefs, it is the women who take the blame in these countries - if your daughter is raped, you have to kill her as she is a shame on your family - this is the situation in some countries - isn't that appalling she was raped for gods sake why is she the problem and not the man.

I have also travelled a bit too.

In Egypt in 1992, I was on a tour bus from the Centre of Cairo the the Pyramids, we stopped at a papyrus factory, when the tour woman asked us over the speaker to look at the children outside the bus.  Do not give them money, she said, give them food or pencils but not money.

The children, between 2 and 15 were lined up waiting in rags for us to leave the bus, with their hands outstretched for coins.
None of them were complete.
Some had arms, legs, eyes, hands, missing, others were badly scarredon their faces, some with a foot missing on home made crutches in rags, with no shoes.

You wanted to give them money.  A Patch, to stick over the wound and make life better, buy shoes or clothes - but you could not.

Who had maimed these children?   THEIR PARENTS - so that you would give them money, the more you give money, the more the parents maim their own children in order to make you give money.

Tell me, why do the parents get away with it?
Because there is no one to stop them.

It is awful to see, I have cried more than once over what I saw that day, and I have told the tale to a lot of people who think that material items and money are more important than love and friendship.  I have tried to explain this to my daughter, when she moans that I am not nice because she cannot watch her favourite chanel on tv.  She doesn't understand bless her.

I remember when I was little, my dad spent a whole night driving me around the streets of London, showing me the tramps. men and women, old and young, sleeping in doorways, on railway embankments, in cardboard boxes, on back streets in bins, foraging for food, I was 13.  It was in the 1970's and I am sure not as bad as it is now. 

Dads lesson was to work hard at school and get a job, and don't think that running away to London is a solution to problems as it is only the beginning - it stuck with me, and I did work hard and was never unemployed, when made redundant twice, I would go work for a temp agency until I could find work rather than go on the dole.  Some jobs I hated and was treated like sh1t, but I kept at it until the right job came up, I was 16 when I was made redundant twice in two years, we were in a recession then too.

What goes on around the world in different cultures will be difficult for us to take in.
As Westerners, believe me we are the lucky ones at the moment, even though our system is corrupt, and our services are not perfect, we have it easy.

We are so lucky Hilarys mum, we can go out and hug and talk to our piggies, enjoy the fresh air and sleep in our own comfy beds, eat the best of home produced pork and love our animals.
I count my blessings every day - I am still alive and happy and loved.

Julie

[sandy]

Excellent reading but some strong emotions it's too early for me to start on the Beans on Toast, I suffered for my over eating yesterday!! Anyway, I keep reading these posts and still wounder what the solution is I then realised I have been a "do goodder" a lot of jobs have involved me working with ex offenders, a lot of them perpetual offenders but I enjoyed the jobs. The government set up schemes to make it look like they are doing something towards reducing crime!!! Jobs are created, and the government collect statistics, often not really wanting the scheme to work then they can put their money somewhere else (Duck Houses!!)I worked with prolific offenders and treated them as I would anyone else, a chat, a laugh and respect, I don't think for one minute I changed their offending habits!!!
A lot of offenders get credibility and status from offending, as well as other more obvious rewards. Not sure how we can change things other than to give them all something worthwile to do. Community service is good, it can cream off a few to not offend again, I know of some cases who have gone into rewarding jobs, but, there will always be bad apples!!!! I would love to see more help for victims, crime certainly does pay!!!

[sandy]

P.S totaly against the death penalty!!!

[sheila]

Sandy I'm so glad you said that.I was beginning to think you had all joined the "hang em and flog em " brigade. I just wanted to say that most states in U.SA  have the death penalty and it does not affect the incident of murder one iota.In fact some sociopaths commit murder so that the police will kill them in a shoot out, thus preventing "Suicide". I see that this is a very emotive subject, too big to be settled here but it is worth remembering that prisons are not meant to be punitive. They are supposed to get the dangerous off the street, to protect the public. Too often they are used as asylums for the mentally ill, who should not be in prison anyway.

[sabrina]

Nothing like what you have all been talking about but I had my 9 year old granddaughter staying for 2 weeks this month. She is moody, talks back all the time and expects to get what she wants. None of her cheek worked on me as I brought up three sons and quite a few foster children. I was shocked at how she thought it was OK to talk to us the way she did and I told her that even today I would not speak back to my mother or any adult the way she was talking to us.If looks could kill I would be well gone. Telling one of the women i work with she went on to say that her husband is a school janitor and is scared at work, the children are ages 5-11 what does that tell you. I know my son does not give in to my granddaughter and as he says life is difficult some days due to the way she behaves but all the kids around him seem to be the same. School teachers suffering with stress was unheard of in my day. if we cannot teach children how to behave and respect others and turn them into law abiding adults then its no wonder we are in such a mess today. I think parents are struggling with lack of time and money and family life has gone as we knew it. As for the law, well thats a joke. You get longer in jail for stealing from the government than you do for killing someone. These sick people who hurt children should be put down.

[Tullywood Farm]

Hiya - I agree

Most states in the USA have the death penalty

Most states in the USA also let any tom dick or harry have a gun and ammo

Most states in the USA have getto problems and escalated drug and mafia type problems

Most states in the USA have populations that live in "Disneyland" and believe it is reality.
They dress like stars in the latest fashion, worship Victoria Beckham and other latest trendsetters and only have to worry about that one single hair that is out of place, and where they are going tonight, and who they might see who is famous, and so on and so on as is the American lifestyle in some cases.

It doesn't bring down the crime rate because they will also be lots of people who love to commit crime, just as we love animals.

I don't believe there is a solution, one answer, to this problem - it is too wide.

What is the worrying thing is that the planners of the future see what is stated in the initial statement, and I am aware that there are a lot of different ways of looking at this problem, but how will it affect the people of the UK and Ireland if we have no prison, just councelling.

We have many an alcoholic or drug addict that has had lots of councelling but will never be able to break their habit - they do not have the willpower or the waywithall to stop it - because of their experiences of life and how it has affected them.

We are all a total of our lifes experiences, and how we behave usually reflects how we have handled the journey of life.  
Most of us try our best to comply with social norms and be accepted into society, unfortunatly there is always a percentage that will not -

It is this percentage that we as the general public, who pay to have a system, should have input in the handling of in the future, otherwise they will always be out on the streets, and recruiting more people to do as they do.

I remember an old man in the local pub saying "I hate them knackers - they dont pay any tax. ( Knackers are an irish reference to Gypsys or travellers)  I used to teach them.

I told him he was wrong - everyone pays tax every day - a packet of cigs, a bottle of milk - everything you buy has tax on it - so everyone contributes, working or not, to the upkeep and running of the country.

Its just how we see it - from our perspective!

Julie