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Author Topic: border collies  (Read 9617 times)

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
border collies
« on: December 23, 2012, 08:05:17 pm »
We are considering getting a border collie as a house dog. We have a Flat-coated retriever at the moment and I only have experience with gundogs. My father trained both his own gundogs and dogs for other people and so in my younger years, I also showed/trained gundogs (labs and flatties) and went picking up. Trained my current Flattie to a reasonable level and did a bit of agility with him. Never intended to work him as I have issues about shooting now but did the training in order that I can take him everywhere with me and to keep him busy as they are a very active breed both physically and mentally ..... far more than labs. etc. in our opinion. But when it comes to collies I know very little. My neighbour trains collies and is well known for being a good collie man. He told me once in general conversation that they were not house dogs so we dismissed the idea of having one. Recently looked after his dogs and thought again about owning one. Spoke to him this week about what he had said. He said that he had been speaking generally and that he thought that if we had a pup as opposed to an older dog then with a bit of luck we could make it work. By this he meant that it was always possible that we could get one that just didn't adapt to life as a house pet/companion. He said that he thought that like with many breeds it depended on the people that owned the dogs to a great extent and also that collies varied in their drive to work. He has 55 years experience training collies and says he would help me with  training on sheep and said that if it really didn't work he would take the collie on.


What my neighbour doesn't really have is real experience in collies living if you like a dual life. I want a companion at the moment and not a kennel dog, so collie would have to live alongside the house rabbit, budgies, free range hens and 11 and 14 year old children. Also my dogs go everywhere with me eg. car journeys, holidays, long walks. Guessing I would dabble at training with sheep (but I only have a few Soay and couple of acres at the moment), definitely obedience and may have a go at agility if there is any nearby.


Thanks for reading my long post. What I wanted ...... PLEASE .... was any advice from anyone keeping Collies in a similar way to what I propose. Will it work???? Are they able to adapt to that way of life.  Any tips??? 

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
  • Qui? Moi?
    • ABERDON GUNDOGS for work and show
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Re: border collies
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2012, 09:02:30 pm »
I have a number of friends who own collies that don't even get teh sort of life you hope to give yours - and they are still happy.  Many of them do agility or obedience, but some of them are show dogs.  I don't really think it matters so long as they get something to use their brain on - they are very similar to Brittanys in a lot of ways - mind wise I mean not body wise.

So I would say go for it, and good luck.
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

Ina

  • Joined Feb 2012
  • South Aberdeenshire
Re: border collies
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2012, 09:07:08 pm »
Shouldn't be a problem at all. My friend has a collie (two, actually, at the moment, as she's training up a new pup) who live in the house, but also work with sheep. Since there aren't that many sheep, she's not constantly busy with them... So has to manage in the house as well! She's also taken on long drives (going on holiday) and copes really well with that. No problem with cats (they don't live in the house, though) and poultry. I think collies are wonderfully versatile - it just depends on how you train them!

jaykay

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Cumbria/N Yorks border
Re: border collies
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2012, 09:07:51 pm »
ITH, that's exactly how I live with my two collies (and my retriever)  :D

I don't have kids but we had collies at home when I was a kid and mine are also fine with my nieces and nephews.

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: border collies
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2012, 09:20:37 pm »
Thanks folks, getting excited  :excited:  but I am a bit of a worrier where animals are concerned so value your experience. Reassuring so far  :fc:


Neighbours started to tell me a bit about inherited collie diseases, some I am aware of (like PRA) but others seem more specific to collies so I need to find out more about these. He seemed to say that we are more likely to get a health checked pup if we go for a registered Collie.

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
  • Qui? Moi?
    • ABERDON GUNDOGS for work and show
    • Facebook
Re: border collies
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2012, 09:28:34 pm »
CEA is another eye disease prevalent in collies - check the  KC website.  Your neighbour is correct - registered pups from responsible breeders are more likely to be health checked.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: border collies
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2012, 09:56:40 pm »
doganjo - thank you.  That's helpful.


My neighbour will help me find a good pup if I decide to go ahead. His pups are all checked so I think he will know what's needed but would sooner find out as much as I can myself as well.

jaykay

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Cumbria/N Yorks border
Re: border collies
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2012, 10:01:40 pm »
Look for one that's both friendly and fussy itself and has parents (at least the mother) that are too.

Because collies can of course be 'living on their nerves', snappy creatures too and you want one of the good-temperament ones  :thumbsup:


Old Shep

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • North Yorkshire
Re: border collies
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2012, 10:41:15 pm »
I have a collie by my feet as I write, and my son and his wife have one in the house too that works sheep so it is do-able. Possibly more than other dogs collies need a bolt hole in the house where they can go to get away from the activity of the house, or you can put them (crate, under the stairs etc...) Their instinct is to manage movement and if its a busy house they can stress over not being able to control every movement, so they need "time out".  Also a low protein diet for adult dogs is advisable. 
Helen - (used to be just Shep).  Gordon Setters, Border Collies and chief lambing assistant to BigBennyShep.

colliewoman

  • Joined Jul 2011
  • Pilton
  • Caution! May spontaneously talk rabbits!
Re: border collies
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2012, 11:17:23 pm »
I am led on the sofa in my truck with 2 Border Collies as I type this :love: :love:


They have lived with house rabbits (despite Red Dog being an avid hunter of wildies) they are fine with the chickens. Just be aware that they really are as super intelligent as people say, training starts the day they get home IMO :thumbsup:
A dog who is intelligent enough to distinguish between a wild bun and a pet, intelligent enough to ignore a command given by a shepherd when it realises the shepherd is wrong, intelligent enough to know when there is a cow missing and go back and look without being asked WILL find plenty to do and think about regardless of your imput........ Make sure you can channel that intelligence let the plenty of things to do and think about be something YOU have decided. Once a collie has gotten into a habit they can be buggers to persuade otherwise! ;D


Have fun,you will soon be assimilated into the collie collective  ;D
We'll turn the dust to soil,
Turn the rust of hate back into passion.
It's not water into wine
But it's here, and it's happening.
Massive,
but passive.


Bring the peace back

Mammyshaz

  • Joined Feb 2012
  • Durham
Re: border collies
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2012, 11:33:10 pm »
Most working breeds  bred for the purpose will have a certain drive to work.  Your flatcoats, if from working stock, are probably easier to keep when regularly worked by you  ;)  This can be anything that uses it's brain really. So agility, obedience, trials....
As long as the working dog gets the time to use it's brain there is no reason why it cannot live a happy family life.

The drawback is amongst the lines of breeding that have gone for generations as a sole working dog with limited family socialising.  Choose a collie that is also a house dog or comes from a line that can cope with family life just as easy as working life. Meeting the parents will help you determine how domesticated the line is.

There are plent out there tom choose from so good luck in your search and will watch this space for updates  :excited:

Alistair

  • Moderator
  • Joined Sep 2012
Re: border collies
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2012, 07:39:20 am »
I've got a house border collie, and a 10week old bc who's (hopefully) going to be worked, the elder of the two has no aptitude for it. I've previously had working collies who lived in the house.

IMO they are the most rewarding dogs to live with and are just addictive but you must remember they have a Ferrari engine for a brain, they are ridiculously clever and mentally quick. They need stimulation.

They do like things to be tidy, people should all be together, slippers should all be together, oh and if your training a working pup, like I'm trying to do, listen to people on here and buy the books and DVDs and stuff


jaykay

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Cumbria/N Yorks border
Re: border collies
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2012, 08:16:08 am »
Quote
Possibly more than other dogs collies need a bolt hole in the house where they can go to get away from the activity of the house, or you can put them (crate, under the stairs etc...) Their instinct is to manage movement and if it's a busy house they can stress over not being able to control every movement, so they need "time out".  Also a low protein diet for adult dogs is advisable

Quote
they have a Ferrari engine for a brain, they are ridiculously clever and mentally quick. They need stimulation

Both very good points  :thumbsup:

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: border collies
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2012, 09:39:35 am »
Thank you.


We have been watching lots of U tube videos about sheep dog training, collies in rescue etc. but can't find much about them fitting into family life. Except the scenario that it won't work if they are left at home alone all day. OH works from home most of the time and I don't work (not in the proper sense anyway  ;D ) so it will have constant company and day to day activity.


My Flattie is you might say "hyper" in some ways even at 7. Slightly "obsessive" in nature ..... to retrieve .... so will bite sticks off trees if there are none around. He is clever (breed originates from labs, setters, newfoundlands and collies) and will drop them where he knows I am forced to pick them up eg. in the corn bins, bowl of water I'm using and  he can open all the doors to the house so if you want to be certain he will stay indoors you have to lock him in  ::) . He loves children with a passion because all he wants to do is play but he is a big boisterous puppy still and if friends are around I keep him with me because he gets carried away and can hurt them accidentally eg. grab sticks as they throw them and catch their hands, jump fences as they climb over them but knock them over because he jumps on top of them in his enthusiasm. Bit of a friendly fool  ;D . I understand him, he is trained but I know that in some situations he needs watching/supervising. With my own children, he is a true friend and ally  ::)


My house is busy in the sense that we are often messing outdoors or the children on the go ..... they are not the sitting down type. The children are older so not running around screaming or moving in a way that would alarm most gundogs and know that not all dogs love to be wrestled with like Alf but would a Collie be able to relax/switch off enough in the house from Alf, the children, cat etc. A tidy house!!!!! OMG, well it would either keep the poor thing busy or send it battie if it wants to tidy up after my 14 year old.  :roflanim:




Would a Collie need a crate???? If things were busy, with say other children here, could I not just call her away to be with me like I would Alf. See, this is where I lack knowledge of the breed.


I like the intelligence/ activity of Collies. Only really "know" retrievers and would choose Flatties over the others because although they are harder work I find labs a bit boring :sofa: . Sorry to go on, sort of thinking aloud and trying to gain Collie knowledge in order not to make a mistake.    Oh, am I worrying too much  ??? .




SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: border collies
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2012, 10:14:48 am »
Some great advice here.   :thumbsup:

No-one's mentioned Barbara Sykes' book yet, so I will  :)  Get a copy now and read it cover to cover! 

Also I would recommend, if you can find a copy, John Cree's Problem Dog - he's an expert with GSDs and collies, an ex-police dog trainer, and the book is full of cracking ideas for dealing with problems - and would give you some insights to help with avoiding creating such problems in the first place!

Cannot agree strongly enough with the low protein diet - even my working dogs get limited protein unless it's a really busy time of year when they'll be doing long hard hours.  TBH, unless they're gathering 00s on the hill day in day out they really don't need much.  Tinned Chappie and a proper wholebake terrier meal for crunch is plenty for a pet collie; many farmers feed them maize meal with just the odd egg or tin when they're working hard.  They are bred to scavenge on the job, though - so don't think that just because your collie is finding things to eat when you're out that it means you are underfeeding it.

And I also wholeheartedly agree that the collie should have a safe haven - a crate is ideal, or a den made under a table, for instance, but somewhere it knows it can go for peace and safety, and the children know they must leave it alone when it's in there.

(As an aside, I wish tourists could recognise that my collies regard the quad bike as their safe haven when I'm out working with them - if they have any worries at all, they retreat to the basket on the back of the bike. As we farm across several country lanes, I am very pleased about this.  So why, oh why do tourists feel the need to approach them with their hands out towards them  :rant:   They're far too well-mannered to nip, so if they don't like the person or group of people, they have no choice but to disembark.  Now I've got a stressed collie in amongst strangers and often on the side of a road...  :rant: :rant:   Surely these people wouldn't approach a dog in a car?  Why do they think approaching a collie on a bike is ok?  And I have to keep my own feelings under wraps, because if the dogs sense my own anger / frustration / concern, it would make them feel concerned or even that they need to protect me / the bike...  Grrrrrrr!!!!!!)

Would a Collie need a crate???? If things were busy, with say other children here, could I not just call her away to be with me like I would Alf. See, this is where I lack knowledge of the breed.

I like the intelligence/ activity of Collies. Only really "know" retrievers and would choose Flatties over the others because although they are harder work I find labs a bit boring :sofa: . Sorry to go on, sort of thinking aloud and trying to gain Collie knowledge in order not to make a mistake.    Oh, am I worrying too much  ??? .

Collies need 'down time' while they process what they've been learning.  They are obsessive by nature.  I would absolutely not recommend that the only safe place your collie has is by your side - s/he would become completely fixated on you and distressed when you are not there.  Much much better to give it space to be its own dog, and feel secure whatever else is or isn't going on elsewhere in the house.

And bless you for doing research and thinking hard about this.  :-*  Personally I don't think you are worrying too much, no - better by far to think it all through and ask advice before you have a collie.  Once you've got the dog, problems can evolve incredibly rapidly - so much better to be as armed as you can be in advance, and avoid as many problems as you can foresee.   :thumbsup:

Derek Scrimgeour says that with a collie, you should never ever tell it off for what you think it has just done or is doing.  By the time you can react, it's already several thought processes ahead and thinking about its next or next but one move.  It would process any reprimand in the context of what it's thinking - and you don't even know what that is! :D  I am completely convinced that this is behind a lot of the tricky problems that evolve with collies, working and non-working.  You think you've told them off for A, but they think you've told them off for G and behave accordingly...   Derek mostly doesn't reprimand the dog at all, he threatens the place he doesn't want the dog to be.  For instance, if you think the dog will rush into the sheep and you don't want it to, Derek would literally shake a stick at the ground between the collie and the sheep, while doing a gruff voice.  Mostly the collie won't take the risk of crossing the 'naughty ground'; the instant it moves other than towards the sheep (in this instance), Derek will tell the dog what it's doing in a light and happy voice.  (Usually 'Come Bye' or 'Away' as it moves around, not towards, the sheep.)

Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

 

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