The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: in the hills on December 23, 2012, 08:05:17 pm
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We are considering getting a border collie as a house dog. We have a Flat-coated retriever at the moment and I only have experience with gundogs. My father trained both his own gundogs and dogs for other people and so in my younger years, I also showed/trained gundogs (labs and flatties) and went picking up. Trained my current Flattie to a reasonable level and did a bit of agility with him. Never intended to work him as I have issues about shooting now but did the training in order that I can take him everywhere with me and to keep him busy as they are a very active breed both physically and mentally ..... far more than labs. etc. in our opinion. But when it comes to collies I know very little. My neighbour trains collies and is well known for being a good collie man. He told me once in general conversation that they were not house dogs so we dismissed the idea of having one. Recently looked after his dogs and thought again about owning one. Spoke to him this week about what he had said. He said that he had been speaking generally and that he thought that if we had a pup as opposed to an older dog then with a bit of luck we could make it work. By this he meant that it was always possible that we could get one that just didn't adapt to life as a house pet/companion. He said that he thought that like with many breeds it depended on the people that owned the dogs to a great extent and also that collies varied in their drive to work. He has 55 years experience training collies and says he would help me with training on sheep and said that if it really didn't work he would take the collie on.
What my neighbour doesn't really have is real experience in collies living if you like a dual life. I want a companion at the moment and not a kennel dog, so collie would have to live alongside the house rabbit, budgies, free range hens and 11 and 14 year old children. Also my dogs go everywhere with me eg. car journeys, holidays, long walks. Guessing I would dabble at training with sheep (but I only have a few Soay and couple of acres at the moment), definitely obedience and may have a go at agility if there is any nearby.
Thanks for reading my long post. What I wanted ...... PLEASE .... was any advice from anyone keeping Collies in a similar way to what I propose. Will it work???? Are they able to adapt to that way of life. Any tips???
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I have a number of friends who own collies that don't even get teh sort of life you hope to give yours - and they are still happy. Many of them do agility or obedience, but some of them are show dogs. I don't really think it matters so long as they get something to use their brain on - they are very similar to Brittanys in a lot of ways - mind wise I mean not body wise.
So I would say go for it, and good luck.
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Shouldn't be a problem at all. My friend has a collie (two, actually, at the moment, as she's training up a new pup) who live in the house, but also work with sheep. Since there aren't that many sheep, she's not constantly busy with them... So has to manage in the house as well! She's also taken on long drives (going on holiday) and copes really well with that. No problem with cats (they don't live in the house, though) and poultry. I think collies are wonderfully versatile - it just depends on how you train them!
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ITH, that's exactly how I live with my two collies (and my retriever) :D
I don't have kids but we had collies at home when I was a kid and mine are also fine with my nieces and nephews.
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Thanks folks, getting excited :excited: but I am a bit of a worrier where animals are concerned so value your experience. Reassuring so far :fc:
Neighbours started to tell me a bit about inherited collie diseases, some I am aware of (like PRA) but others seem more specific to collies so I need to find out more about these. He seemed to say that we are more likely to get a health checked pup if we go for a registered Collie.
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CEA is another eye disease prevalent in collies - check the KC website. Your neighbour is correct - registered pups from responsible breeders are more likely to be health checked.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf (http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf)
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doganjo - thank you. That's helpful.
My neighbour will help me find a good pup if I decide to go ahead. His pups are all checked so I think he will know what's needed but would sooner find out as much as I can myself as well.
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Look for one that's both friendly and fussy itself and has parents (at least the mother) that are too.
Because collies can of course be 'living on their nerves', snappy creatures too and you want one of the good-temperament ones :thumbsup:
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I have a collie by my feet as I write, and my son and his wife have one in the house too that works sheep so it is do-able. Possibly more than other dogs collies need a bolt hole in the house where they can go to get away from the activity of the house, or you can put them (crate, under the stairs etc...) Their instinct is to manage movement and if its a busy house they can stress over not being able to control every movement, so they need "time out". Also a low protein diet for adult dogs is advisable.
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I am led on the sofa in my truck with 2 Border Collies as I type this :love: :love:
They have lived with house rabbits (despite Red Dog being an avid hunter of wildies) they are fine with the chickens. Just be aware that they really are as super intelligent as people say, training starts the day they get home IMO :thumbsup:
A dog who is intelligent enough to distinguish between a wild bun and a pet, intelligent enough to ignore a command given by a shepherd when it realises the shepherd is wrong, intelligent enough to know when there is a cow missing and go back and look without being asked WILL find plenty to do and think about regardless of your imput........ Make sure you can channel that intelligence let the plenty of things to do and think about be something YOU have decided. Once a collie has gotten into a habit they can be buggers to persuade otherwise! ;D
Have fun,you will soon be assimilated into the collie collective ;D
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Most working breeds bred for the purpose will have a certain drive to work. Your flatcoats, if from working stock, are probably easier to keep when regularly worked by you ;) This can be anything that uses it's brain really. So agility, obedience, trials....
As long as the working dog gets the time to use it's brain there is no reason why it cannot live a happy family life.
The drawback is amongst the lines of breeding that have gone for generations as a sole working dog with limited family socialising. Choose a collie that is also a house dog or comes from a line that can cope with family life just as easy as working life. Meeting the parents will help you determine how domesticated the line is.
There are plent out there tom choose from so good luck in your search and will watch this space for updates :excited:
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I've got a house border collie, and a 10week old bc who's (hopefully) going to be worked, the elder of the two has no aptitude for it. I've previously had working collies who lived in the house.
IMO they are the most rewarding dogs to live with and are just addictive but you must remember they have a Ferrari engine for a brain, they are ridiculously clever and mentally quick. They need stimulation.
They do like things to be tidy, people should all be together, slippers should all be together, oh and if your training a working pup, like I'm trying to do, listen to people on here and buy the books and DVDs and stuff
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Possibly more than other dogs collies need a bolt hole in the house where they can go to get away from the activity of the house, or you can put them (crate, under the stairs etc...) Their instinct is to manage movement and if it's a busy house they can stress over not being able to control every movement, so they need "time out". Also a low protein diet for adult dogs is advisable
they have a Ferrari engine for a brain, they are ridiculously clever and mentally quick. They need stimulation
Both very good points :thumbsup:
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Thank you.
We have been watching lots of U tube videos about sheep dog training, collies in rescue etc. but can't find much about them fitting into family life. Except the scenario that it won't work if they are left at home alone all day. OH works from home most of the time and I don't work (not in the proper sense anyway ;D ) so it will have constant company and day to day activity.
My Flattie is you might say "hyper" in some ways even at 7. Slightly "obsessive" in nature ..... to retrieve .... so will bite sticks off trees if there are none around. He is clever (breed originates from labs, setters, newfoundlands and collies) and will drop them where he knows I am forced to pick them up eg. in the corn bins, bowl of water I'm using and he can open all the doors to the house so if you want to be certain he will stay indoors you have to lock him in ::) . He loves children with a passion because all he wants to do is play but he is a big boisterous puppy still and if friends are around I keep him with me because he gets carried away and can hurt them accidentally eg. grab sticks as they throw them and catch their hands, jump fences as they climb over them but knock them over because he jumps on top of them in his enthusiasm. Bit of a friendly fool ;D . I understand him, he is trained but I know that in some situations he needs watching/supervising. With my own children, he is a true friend and ally ::)
My house is busy in the sense that we are often messing outdoors or the children on the go ..... they are not the sitting down type. The children are older so not running around screaming or moving in a way that would alarm most gundogs and know that not all dogs love to be wrestled with like Alf but would a Collie be able to relax/switch off enough in the house from Alf, the children, cat etc. A tidy house!!!!! OMG, well it would either keep the poor thing busy or send it battie if it wants to tidy up after my 14 year old. :roflanim:
Would a Collie need a crate???? If things were busy, with say other children here, could I not just call her away to be with me like I would Alf. See, this is where I lack knowledge of the breed.
I like the intelligence/ activity of Collies. Only really "know" retrievers and would choose Flatties over the others because although they are harder work I find labs a bit boring :sofa: . Sorry to go on, sort of thinking aloud and trying to gain Collie knowledge in order not to make a mistake. Oh, am I worrying too much ??? .
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Some great advice here. :thumbsup:
No-one's mentioned Barbara Sykes' book yet, so I will :) Get a copy now and read it cover to cover!
Also I would recommend, if you can find a copy, John Cree's Problem Dog - he's an expert with GSDs and collies, an ex-police dog trainer, and the book is full of cracking ideas for dealing with problems - and would give you some insights to help with avoiding creating such problems in the first place!
Cannot agree strongly enough with the low protein diet - even my working dogs get limited protein unless it's a really busy time of year when they'll be doing long hard hours. TBH, unless they're gathering 00s on the hill day in day out they really don't need much. Tinned Chappie and a proper wholebake terrier meal for crunch is plenty for a pet collie; many farmers feed them maize meal with just the odd egg or tin when they're working hard. They are bred to scavenge on the job, though - so don't think that just because your collie is finding things to eat when you're out that it means you are underfeeding it.
And I also wholeheartedly agree that the collie should have a safe haven - a crate is ideal, or a den made under a table, for instance, but somewhere it knows it can go for peace and safety, and the children know they must leave it alone when it's in there.
(As an aside, I wish tourists could recognise that my collies regard the quad bike as their safe haven when I'm out working with them - if they have any worries at all, they retreat to the basket on the back of the bike. As we farm across several country lanes, I am very pleased about this. So why, oh why do tourists feel the need to approach them with their hands out towards them :rant: They're far too well-mannered to nip, so if they don't like the person or group of people, they have no choice but to disembark. Now I've got a stressed collie in amongst strangers and often on the side of a road... :rant: :rant: Surely these people wouldn't approach a dog in a car? Why do they think approaching a collie on a bike is ok? And I have to keep my own feelings under wraps, because if the dogs sense my own anger / frustration / concern, it would make them feel concerned or even that they need to protect me / the bike... Grrrrrrr!!!!!!)
Would a Collie need a crate???? If things were busy, with say other children here, could I not just call her away to be with me like I would Alf. See, this is where I lack knowledge of the breed.
I like the intelligence/ activity of Collies. Only really "know" retrievers and would choose Flatties over the others because although they are harder work I find labs a bit boring :sofa: . Sorry to go on, sort of thinking aloud and trying to gain Collie knowledge in order not to make a mistake. Oh, am I worrying too much ??? .
Collies need 'down time' while they process what they've been learning. They are obsessive by nature. I would absolutely not recommend that the only safe place your collie has is by your side - s/he would become completely fixated on you and distressed when you are not there. Much much better to give it space to be its own dog, and feel secure whatever else is or isn't going on elsewhere in the house.
And bless you for doing research and thinking hard about this. :-* Personally I don't think you are worrying too much, no - better by far to think it all through and ask advice before you have a collie. Once you've got the dog, problems can evolve incredibly rapidly - so much better to be as armed as you can be in advance, and avoid as many problems as you can foresee. :thumbsup:
Derek Scrimgeour says that with a collie, you should never ever tell it off for what you think it has just done or is doing. By the time you can react, it's already several thought processes ahead and thinking about its next or next but one move. It would process any reprimand in the context of what it's thinking - and you don't even know what that is! :D I am completely convinced that this is behind a lot of the tricky problems that evolve with collies, working and non-working. You think you've told them off for A, but they think you've told them off for G and behave accordingly... Derek mostly doesn't reprimand the dog at all, he threatens the place he doesn't want the dog to be. For instance, if you think the dog will rush into the sheep and you don't want it to, Derek would literally shake a stick at the ground between the collie and the sheep, while doing a gruff voice. Mostly the collie won't take the risk of crossing the 'naughty ground'; the instant it moves other than towards the sheep (in this instance), Derek will tell the dog what it's doing in a light and happy voice. (Usually 'Come Bye' or 'Away' as it moves around, not towards, the sheep.)
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Just ordered Derek's book after your recommendation :excited:
Cheers sally
A collies idea of tidy isn't necessarily the same as yours ;D
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SITN - thank you so much for spending time on that brill post.
Beginning to get the crate idea. I have never looked into these ..... never really needed to. I suppose most of the dogs I grew up with were working dogs and in kennels. Only had my current lad from a pup in the house and he never had one accident or chewed in the house. Amazing really ..... he is intense and on the go but very clever. Get the "have your own safe place" ..... you explain that really well. Think my lad has some obsessive traits and can't leave my side. Eyes always on me, a shadow and if outside without me will run around the house looking for me. Golden when I leave him though ..... she's not here so I'll just lie motionless until she returns. Perhaps he needed a crate ;D .
Will get those books and carry on researching and asking all I can. The title "Problem dog" concerns me a little :o though.
My Collie training neighbour was telling me about thinking ahead of them and using a stick and his body as barriers and guides when training. Also not too much too early ...... babies for a long time he reckons and too much pressure unfair on them and will spoil them in the long run.
My pet hate is ..... can my dog say hello to yours. On leads my answer is now a friendly "no". Find dogs on leads saying hello can quickly become agitated and aggressive. My dogs hello can be a bit too friendly and not welcomed by all dogs and the dogs saying hello have often not been friendly at all. ::)
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SITN - thank you so much for spending time on that brill post.
Beginning to get the crate idea. I have never looked into these ..... never really needed to. I suppose most of the dogs I grew up with were working dogs and in kennels. Only had my current lad from a pup in the house and he never had one accident or chewed in the house. Amazing really ..... he is intense and on the go but very clever. Get the "have your own safe place" ..... you explain that really well. Think my lad has some obsessive traits and can't leave my side. Eyes always on me, a shadow and if outside without me will run around the house looking for me. Golden when I leave him though ..... she's not here so I'll just lie motionless until she returns. Perhaps he needed a crate ;D .
Will get those books and carry on researching and asking all I can. The title "Problem dog" concerns me a little :o though.
My Collie training neighbour was telling me about thinking ahead of them and using a stick and his body as barriers and guides when training. Also not too much too early ...... babies for a long time he reckons and too much pressure unfair on them and will spoil them in the long run.
My pet hate is ..... can my dog say hello to yours. On leads my answer is now a friendly "no". Find dogs on leads saying hello can quickly become agitated and aggressive. My dogs hello can be a bit too friendly and not welcomed by all dogs and the dogs saying hello have often not been friendly at all. ::)
Be thankful they ask you, round here it is customary to let your loose dog rush up to a leashed dog whilst repeating the mantra 'it's ok he's perfectly friendly' :rant:
One day I am going to be rich.
I am going to write the 'idiot dog owner to English translation guide'
'It's ok he's perfectly friendly' ACTUALLY means ''he's a rude beast with no doggy manners who I have absolutely no control over and bugger all recall'
'he's been pulling on the lead' means 'he's got kennel cough, and now so have yours'.
'oh he's never done that before' means ''well actually he has but I cannot possibly admit to myself that my dog might have an issue with biting/fighting/chasing sheep so will do nothing about it.'
When it's finished I might advertise it :thumbsup:
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:roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
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Be thankful they ask you, round here it is customary to let your loose dog rush up to a leashed dog whilst repeating the mantra 'it's ok he's perfectly friendly' :rant:
To which I always reply - 'mine isn't, thats why he is on a lead'.
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my collie has his place under a sideboard at the back door he has went there since he was a pup the entrance to it is about 8 inch then 1 ft once inside the kids know not to bother him there but he is fine with them he works sheep about once a month but he goes with me morning and night to check the stock but he is round the house all the other time
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i have had a collie by my side my whole life since my mum got me my first when i was 12.
they are very adaptable, but do need some kind of job to do, it's their nature. my current girl came from a rescue centre 6 yrs ago, no idea her background, but she helps me outside by instinct. she lives in the house along with the rest of our dog gang (7 atm, 2 visitors)
i would agree strongly with the bolt hole comment, and also remember that they can be very much one man dogs, i have had one that would only responds to me, and would stay in her bolt hole if i was out the house. current girl has a stong jealous streak, but not a problem as we are aware and manage her accordingly.
all dogs have various needs in terms of handling and training, and regardless of breed should be treated individualy.
let the dog choose you. even if it turns out to be a more difficult dog, it will respond because it knows you are the right companion for it.
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My copy of talking sheepdogs has arrived
It's a fantastic book, cheers SITN, money well spent :thumbsup:
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Need some collie help already ::) .
Our hens free range so little Meg has seen them already. So far I keep her on her lead outside but soon will let her off. I know how I would teach a gundog to leave them alone but what's the best approach with a collie. If she stalks them .... do I allow her to do so, do I stop her, etc. Want to work with her instincts and not do anything in the early days to spoil her. ???
She is already stalking our Flattie and anything that moves in the house. Amazing.
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My advice would be, it doesn't matter what the breed of dog, it must learn how you want it to act around that situation. In my limited experience, working breed dogs will quickly learn to switch to working mode for jobs you give them, or relax mode for life outside of work, so to speak.
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I taught Skye that he was allowed to sit or lie and watch chooks, ducks and geese, but not chase. If he showed even the hint of getting up, I would roar at him and throw the metal bit of the choke chain at him. I'm such a bad shot it rarely if ever hit him, but the noise and surprise of it landing nearby emphasised the 'awfulness' of even thinking about chasing chooks.
He is rock solid around any animals. He will obsess about chooks to the point of sitting with his head in the pophole when one is laying :roflanim: but he never, ever chases them.
It hasn't hurt his shepherding instinct at all. In fact, he was a pet hillwalking dog for years before he was a proper sheepdog. In those days he wasn't even allowed to look at sheep on the hill, but had to come to heel when he so much as smelled one - taught as for the chooks. He was perfect at doing so. But when we came here and he was allowed to herd sheep - he undid all those years of learning in a heartbeat and became a reasonable sheepdog - not bad at 8 :thumbsup:
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Thanks both.
So if she actually stalks or chases I can intervene as I normally would. Just wasn't sure if it would put her off herding. Dad had to try to put right a lot of faults in gundogs he trained that were put there by their owners .... often being too hard or chastising behaviour that at a young age should have actually been encouraged ..... am aware that I maybe one of those owners when it comes to collies :o .
[size=78%] Neighbour is finding me out all his training books but guessing that these books will assume that the dog is being trained and then put back in a kennel/barn so we are going to have to deal with some different situations because Meg has to be a bit of everything/see everything. Not easy for her.[/size]
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In my experience herding is in their bones so much, if they're from good working stock, that nothing puts them off it.
Even my hubby's comparatively dim German Shepherd could distinguish between when he was a pet house dog and when he was a fierce working dog. Border collies have no problems switching between what's required in their different roles. In fact, I think it's good for them to do lots of different things, keeps that Ferrari brain active.
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One thing about collies is, they're all different!
Before I farmed and had my own sheep and collies to work them, I used to train my companion dogs exactly as jaykay describes. My dogs knew it was naughty to look at sheep and would come a-running back to me if they so much as glimpsed one.
But I have to say, I wouldn't do it that way now with one I want to work sheep, especially a bitch.
Firstly, ith, I would not stop her stalking anything she wants to stalk. She's honing her skills, and it would be hard for her to know why sometimes stalking is good and sometimes bad. Chances are, if she obsesses with the chooks and stalks them, she probably won't take it to the next step and rush at them, so then there isn't a problem. (Dot still stalks our chooks at 5 years old; she's never harmed a feather.)
If she does rush at them, do not shout at or throw anything at her, but threaten the ground between her and the chooks. So that she would have to leave a place where no-one is shouting at her or threatening her to move into a place where both of those things are happening. 99.99% of the time, possibly more, they won't do it.
I do think that working collies are different to other working dogs. They alone work with a large number of sentient, lively and usually fit and active other animals, whom the collie must not hurt. The relationship between dog and handler is different - very different - to that with a dog you are doing obedience, or agility, or even field trials, with. You are very much a partnership; sometimes you will instruct the dog but for the most part your input is guidance and advice - making suggestions rather than commanding a specific action. Most of your training focusses on building patterns of behaviour in the dog where it generally finds it more pleasant and rewarding to follow your advice than to ignore it. (And to a working collie, 'reward' means controlling sheep. 'Good dog' just doesn't compare to holding sheep in your thrawl ;))
And let me say this, too - starting with working collies as an adult, ith, you, like me, will never know as much about how sheep behave as that pup does already. So a partnership you will need to be - when it comes to real work, Meg will often know exactly what to do, and have done it, before you even realise a sheep was about to break ;)
Before I say more, however, can I suggest you get your neighbour's take on this? Since you will be getting training from him, even if his approach is very different to mine or any of your other TAS advisors, you would be best to go along with his approach or you and the dog will soon become confused! As with training any dog, consistency matters more than almost anything else. ;)
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Of course every dog is different. But as a breed I think they're bright enough to distinguish between not being allowed to stalk chooks and being allowed to do it with sheep.
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Thank you SITN. Good to have different opinions because all dogs are individuals and what works with one needs modifying/different approach for another.
I was worried about squishing completely her instinct to herd. Not that much work of that sort to do here but want to be able to do a bit with her if she takes to it ..... if she turns out to be a collie with no interest in sheep then it won't be a disaster .... we can do plenty of other types of "work" (from what I have read).
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Sorry, posted that before adding that my neighbour has been to see Meg and brought lots of collie books for me to read. He wasn't completely sure about best approach with chooks as his dogs are never put in the position of having anything on hand to chase .... out of kennel, trained and back in kennel .... as dad's gundogs were.
He thinks that it would be best not to allow any stalking because this could at this stage (no obedience training) turn quickly into chasing ... a game not to be encouraged. Think I'll go for this but use the threatened ground approach and not be too harsh .... just in case. Only lab. that my dad returned to its owner with "I'll carry on but it's a waste of your money" was a bitch that had been treated too harshly as a pup, confused and lost every confidence to do anything at all ??? ... it's a fine line with some dogs.
Thanks again .
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Aye, it depends on the individual. Some are emotionally very robust - and from what I've seen of him, jaykay's Skye is such a one :D - and others less so. My Dot is amazing, but if she gets worried that she's not 'doing it right' she just decamps back to the quad bike, or her kennel, and waits in safety. So I have to be very careful to not reprimand her - she's always trying to 'do it right', so if it's going wrong it's not through her want of trying!
A collie that's going to genuinely work sheep needs a lot of confidence, in itself and also in you to back it up if it needs it. Being obsessive, sensitive and often not emotionally robust creatures, I find it more productive to growl at the place I don't want them to be, rather than to let rip at the dog itself.
You sound pretty dog-savvy, ith. Hopefully if we all furnish you with our varied views, you'll be able to decide what suits your dog and your situation. :thumbsup:
Ah, you've just posted about the pup that lost its confidence, so I can see that you understand where I'm coming from.
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If she does rush at them, do not shout at or throw anything at her, but threaten the ground between her and the chooks. So that she would have to leave a place where no-one is shouting at her or threatening her to move into a place where both of those things are happening. 99.99% of the time, possibly more, they won't do it.
Mine does, but only because the cockerel tries (and sometimes succeeds) to see him off. ;D