[doganjo]

I'm genuinely not trying to    here but if we only breed from CC or FTC stock isn't this where we run into problems with a small gene pool, health issues and nowhere to go to resolve those problems. Of course any breeding dogs should be healthy in many ways, but do we tie ourselves in a knot by putting restrictions on breeding as have been discussed previously. Does encouraging sterilisation add to these problems?
Discuss.

I'm not advocating ONLY breeding from show winning or Field Trial winning stock.  I am advocating breeding from health tested stock.  That is from stock tested for those diseases that have been identified in that particular breed as being hereditary and detrimental to individual animals.

For instance, in Brittanys only Hip Dysplasia has been identified as a health problem, and at the moment, albeit skewed and with inadequate numbers being tested, the average score is 17.  I would advocate ONLY breeding from dogs that have a lower score than that.  It is certainly no guarantee that all puppies resulting will have good hips, but we have no other tool, and we should use whatever tools are available to us.  I don't think the Kennel Club should allow dogs to be bred from with a score higher than the average in any breed.  But again it comes down to spondulix - the KC would lose revenue!

[tizaala]

Don't trust the KC to discourage breeding from high score animals, Gabi's original English Setter had 1:1 hips , Rareridge Kings Cross at Silversun, but because he was owned by her and not one of the "top breeders" nobody used him even though he had qualified for Crufts and had a very successful show life, But they allowed a bitch with a hipscore of 74 to be bred from by a "top breeder" the breed standard recommends not breeding from totals ex ceding 18 in ES. 

[Beewyched]

Don't trust the KC to discourage breeding from high score animals, Gabi's original English Setter had 1:1 hips , Rareridge Kings Cross at Silversun, but because he was owned by her and not one of the "top breeders" nobody used him even though he had qualified for Crufts and had a very successful show life, But they allowed a bitch with a hipscore of 74 to be bred from by a "top breeder" the breed standard recommends not breeding from totals ex ceding 18 in ES. 

& I wouldn't mind betting the "top breeder" was also an A-list judge either 

[doganjo]

This ism exactly the reaction I expected - from BOTH sides!  It's an ill thought out scheme by the Kennel Club - yet again! And announced without full consultation with Breed Clubs - yet again!

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/78170/1/irish_r_w_setter_clubs_dismayed_by_crossbreeding_programme

[sabrina]

Show type or working, is this not confusing for most people. If a a breed of dog is say gundog like the setter surely it should be judge as such. Is it strong enough to do a days work. if this was the case maybe there would not be quite so many problems in the breed. I used to show my Irish Setters many years ago but gave up when the dogs being judge and winning not only ran like a hackney pony but where so light in build that they were losing what the Irish Setter looked like. I believe that every working Breed should be able to do their job if needed. The trouble is the people who now breed for fashion are not only harming dog breeds but taking away what most breeds used to be for.

[HelenVF]

I think that a lot of the gundog breeds are so far removed, i can't see anything changing. A lot of people who show just don't have any interest in the working world and vice versa.

I went on a shotover grouse day a few years ago and they were shooting over irish setters. To me, they are too small and just seem to get smaller.  They look a totally different breed to the showlines.

One breed which does seem to be changing is the english springer spaniel. Certainly at Crufts, a lot of them seemed to have a lot less feathering than they used to.

Just my ramblings lol

Helen

[Old Shep]

The working setters in both Irish and Gordons can be very much lighter and smaller than the show.  I have a dual bred Gordon who has a working brain and nose but a show stature - he struggles to do a whole days work in hot temperatures.  My purely working girl though is much slimmer and smaller and would have no problem in doing a full days work :-) (if I could keep her in the same county).

[Moleskins]

Helen and Shep, the Springers I've mentioned in previous posts with the liver problem are a show breed, they're a completely different animal to my working bred one and don't have anywhere near the same amount of 'go'.

[sabrina]

When judging a horse class like working hunter I look at build, heart room, feet, good joints. why, a hunter may have to go 10 miles or more on one chase over rough ground. If they have none of these points the chance of the horse staying well and fit over a season is poor.To me any show animal must be fit for purpose and to breed a type of show dog not fit for its job of work its bad for any breed but I am not a dog judge.

[doganjo]

Yes, I agree that it would take an awful lot to get some breeds back together, but it could be down - and to take the best traits from both sides.

I used to have show Cockers, and I loved them(I still do) - but at the time we were 'townies' so the fact that they hadn't much in the way of brains didn't matter so long as they could find there way back to us on a forest walk.  Then we made friends with a gamekeeper, got involved in gundog training, moved out of town, bought a couple of Brittanys - and our whole outlook changed. Our main reason for taking the Brittanys was because they  are a dual purpose breed. 
We are fighting some committee members at the moment to keep our Club Weekend, as it is a joint work and show event - they want to split it - that would split our breed again.  The tail docking ban nearly did that already.  Fortunately we also have natural bobtails which has saved that particular situation.

I would always advocate getting gundog breeds back to being working dogs that look good - my kennel motto is - Good-looking AND Intelligent.

I judge Brittanys in the same way as you judge horses,Sabrina - especially as they were originally modeled by the French breeders on the French cob Horse. (a statue in Callac, where the breed originated depicts such a horse)

[Moleskins]

To me any show animal must be fit for purpose and to breed a type of show dog not fit for its job of work its bad for any breed but I am not a dog judge.

No, you're not a dog judge,


Perhaps you should be though because I think you're bang on with that.

[doganjo]

Quote from: sabrina on Today at 10:01:24 AM
To me any show animal must be fit for purpose and to breed a type of show dog not fit for its job of work its bad for any breed but I am not a dog judge.


No, you're not a dog judge,


Perhaps you should be though because I think you're bang on with that.

But I am, Moleskins, and I agree with that too.  That is why I keep banging on about health tests for ALL dogs, whether gundogs, working, pastoral, toy , utility , terrier or hound/  All dogs regardless of WHO breeds them, should be fit for purpose.

[Moleskins]

Well at last we're starting to see eye to eye on a few things 
As you know I've always felt that we should breed from good stock. In my case a Springer who can do the job, isn't mental in the house, and is fit, intelligent and  healthy.


I've never felt that just success in the show ring should be the trigger to breed. As has been commented on in other posts lack of suitable animals is becoming a problem so someone who doesn't show but has a good dog should be encouraged.


I commented earlier on the forum about a client who's son had their Springer mated 'because they were short of money' I know we see eye to eye on that one !! ( It didn't take by the way )

[HelenVF]

The working setters in both Irish and Gordons can be very much lighter and smaller than the show.  I have a dual bred Gordon who has a working brain and nose but a show stature - he struggles to do a whole days work in hot temperatures.  My purely working girl though is much slimmer and smaller and would have no problem in doing a full days work :-) (if I could keep her in the same county).

I met someone in gordons a few years ago who showed as well as trialled.  I never realised there was a split in working and show.


Helen

[HelenVF]

Helen and Shep, the Springers I've mentioned in previous posts with the liver problem are a show breed, they're a completely different animal to my working bred one and don't have anywhere near the same amount of 'go'.

I know and have 2 working springers myself. I was just saying that they seem to be getting less exaggerated in the showring.


Helen