[Perdita]

KC to accept Irish Red and White Setter/Irish Setter crosses
Created: 24/08/2012

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THE KENNEL Club is to accept registrations of imported Irish Red and White Setter crossed with Irish Setters.

The KC announced today that the Irish Kennel Club (IKC) had accepted that crossbreeding Irish Red and White Setters with Irish Setters ‘might become necessary in the future’ to preserve the genetic health of the breed.

The KC said it had made the decision to register the crosses ‘in accordance with reciprocal agreements with other national kennel clubs’ – providing they meet all the current requirements for UK registration and are clear of hereditary condition GPRA rcd1.

The KC will transpose the identification system adopted in Ireland (X1, X2, X3) with its own asterisk identification system, to identify the crossbred generations.

"The KC supports crossbreeding programmes which improve breed health, and the IKC decided there was a need to recognise dogs who may be born from such a cross in preparation for the need to preserve genetic diversity and to prevent associated health problems from surfacing within the breed.

"The success of any cross programme can be determined by breeders and breed clubs themselves through their future decisions to incorporate these dogs into their bloodlines.”


That's what it needs with the English Setters. The breed is dying and now people cannot get their bitches in whelp anymore etc. We said it years ago that the lines were bred too closely and dogs with health issues were used for breeding as they belonged to the "right" people. The only thing that can save the English Setter now is to crossbread and get health and strength back in the breed.

[SallyintNorth]

I applaud anything that promotes health above a slavish commitment to pedigree.  Well done the Kennel Club; let's hope this is the first of many such initiatives.

[Sylvia]

I'm a hound and toy person so Dogandjo will have a better answer than me but in my experience (my niece shows Irish Setters) this may also be beneficial to them. The ones I've met, dear things all, have been singularly lacking "upstairs"

[HelenVF]

My old boss had an irws for grouse counting. Really lovely dog. I also have a friend who shows them. I hadn't realised they were in so much trouble

Didn't know about the english either. I have 3 working english who are really fantastic dogs.

Helen

[doganjo]

I saw this in the Dog World Newsletter a day or so ago.  I'm not really in favour of cross breeding of any sort - as you will probably have gathered from past arguments.       I'm afraid I prefer the rule of 'only breed with health tested stock'.  I don't understand why the KC hasn't put that in place first before resorting to cross breeding.  It may well be necessary if that doesn't improve things, but why not start at the correct place. 

Stop all indiscriminate breeding, don't allow breeding where stock has not been health tested and vet checked.  I know the KC doesn't have control over all breeding in the UK  but it is high time we had laws to this effect so that only healthy dogs were bred - it would save such a lot of heartache to families who find out too late they've bought a sick pup.

But I guess if the KC have decided there ain't much I can do about it

[Beewyched]

I saw this in the Dog World Newsletter a day or so ago.  I'm not really in favour of cross breeding of any sort - as you will probably have gathered from past arguments.       I'm afraid I prefer the rule of 'only breed with health tested stock'.  I don't understand why the KC hasn't put that in place first before resorting to cross breeding.  It may well be necessary if that doesn't improve things, but why not start at the correct place. 

Stop all indiscriminate breeding, don't allow breeding where stock has not been health tested and vet checked.  I know the KC doesn't have control over all breeding in the UK  but it is high time we had laws to this effect so that only healthy dogs were bred - it would save such a lot of heartache to families who find out too late they've bought a sick pup.

But I guess if the KC have decided there ain't much I can do about it

Hear hear Annie 

[Moleskins]

 
Stop all indiscriminate breeding, don't allow breeding where stock has not been health tested and vet checked.  I know the KC doesn't have control over all breeding in the UK  but it is high time we had laws to this effect so that only healthy dogs were bred - it would save such a lot of heartache to families who find out too late they've bought a sick pup.

But I guess if the KC have decided there ain't much I can do about it

Sigh
Irish setters have been known for years for being thick as two short planks, so much so that there were cruel jokes made about the Irish bit of their name.
How sad that only now have the Kennel Club woken up to the problem.
Can't remember if I've said this, but you may recall my tale of the Springers bred with liver problems. Lady nearby had 3 of 4 die, can only imagine the upset and cost associated with this. I'm told that the breeder is someone well in with the KC
Sigh again.
The KC can hardly cover themselves in glory can they. Can we trust them to be the guardians of breeding dogs?


Spoke to someone last week whose son was short of money so they'd had the dog mated. My opinion on that?
Fortunately it didn't take, don't agree with that sort of breeding either.

[Perdita]

Doganjo - I can see your point but I think with some breeds it is too late to breed with only health tested stock. To start of you should breed only with health tested stock anyhow. But there are breeds where there are not any really healthy animals left or if you use the very few the level of inbreeding gets much to high and then you breed new health issues into the breed. Also there are some things you cannot test for like the horrendeous skin problems in English Setters. I know of several cases where neither father or mother showed any sign of skin problems at least till the age of 6 or 7 and then their breeding days are over anyhow. Also with the English Setters (only breed I really have knowledge of) there are hardly any puppies born. Why? The reason is not that there is no market for them as some breeders want you to think but that breeders cannot get their bitches in whelp (either bitch does not take, does not even have a proper season or the "stud dog" is not capable of doing his job or firing blanks. The few bitches that do get in whelp have on average not more then 3 puppies (very often only one or two) and there are also quite a few cases where the very few puppies just die or are born dead. All this is a certain sign of huge genetic problems - nature steps in to prevent disaster. So what to do, where to go? You either have to start crossing working lines with show line and they are totally different dogs or do an total outcross with either another setter or pointer etc. Not ideal and very sad but it is the only way. Otherwise there is no hope at all. Appart from the health issues this beautiful breed is also loosing its most important feature - the temperament. It is hardly believable but there are more and more English Setters about with a nasty temperament. Also the average age of death is now under 10 years!!!!!! Would like to hear your thoughts to these problems.

[doganjo]

Thanks for the PM Gabriele.  I don't know much about any of those breeds except what I see in the show ring.  I have never owned nor bred a Setter of any kind.  But I HAVE judged a great number of them at Open shows.
As far as I can see from my catalogues over 25 years there are a good few breeders who seem to have no problems producing new young stock, and I must admit I have never seen any skin conditions.  So I can only speak on what I have seen. 
I agree entirely with you that no stock of any animal should ever be bred from without health checks being done.  But I somehow can't believe that with the numbers of any of the Setter breeds all over the World that  it isn't possible to obtain healthy stock.  I have no doubt it would cost more - but I suspect that is the root of the problem. (as it is with most things)

In my breed (Brittanys - the breed came to the Uk in 1982/3) we had a problem with epilepsy in the mid/late 80's - it came in from France with some of the imported stock.  Within a couple of  years it was all but eradicated, due to responsible breeders neutering all carriers they could trace, and now the only rare time it is seen is from breeders of 'one off' litters or who have not deep knowledge of the breed.  At no time did we ever consider merging the Epagneul Breton with another breed to address the problem.

I can see that in extreme case with a small gene pool it MIGHT be necessary, but are Setters really at this stage??  There are only about 4000 Brittanys in the UK, but a great many in France - our early breeders went back to France for replacement tested stock at some expense to rejuvenate the gene pool , so it seems to me that is what Setter breeders could do. 
Perhaps I am simplifying the case but that is my opinion.

[Perdita]

That was quick, thanks you so much for your reply. It is a subject that is very sensitive and close to my heart. I have not got time right now to reply in detail but will tonight when we are back. Just that much: In 2002 568 English Setter puppies were registered, in 2011 it was 234 and the English Setter is now an endangered breed. Relly wuld love to get the discussion going, not trying to slant (is that the right word?) anyone but just am so concerned about the breed.

[HelenVF]

Is there such a big problem with english setters in the rest of the world?  They seem popular on the continent, certainly as a working breed.  The sire of my youngest is an import from Italy.

Helen

[Moleskins]

That's a very good point Helen, how has the problem been caused here,
my suspicion as you will all know ........... I won't bore you with it again.

[Perdita]

Reply to Doganjo
"As far as I can see from my catalogues over 25 years there are a good few breeders who seem to have no problems producing new young stock"
25 years ago everything was ok, even 19 years ago but the last 4-5 years it really starts to show. As I said before the numbers of registered pups declined by nearly70 % over the last 15 years. The numbers entered in shows are down by more than that. E.g. The last quarter of 2011 there were only 7 litters born
litter 1    8 pups
litter 2    2 pups
litter 3    6 pups
litter 4    2 pups
litter 5    1 pup
litter 6    2 pups
litter 7    1 pup
That makes an average  of 3,12 pups while even 10 years ago the average was near to 7 pups.
At the same time I know of about at least 5 breeders that tried to get their bitches in whelp without any luck. One of them mated 3 bitches to 2 different dogs and nothing.

"and I must admit I have never seen any skin conditions."
You won't see them in the show ring. The breeders/ owners etc are terrified of being associated with a dog withskin problems, the hide it at any cost. The siblings might have the most horrendeous skin, or they put their dogs on steroids or atopica or it hasn't broken out yet. There are obviously also some dogs without any skin problems. Our Issy has never had any problems but 3 out of the same litter (which we bred) have it - so we had her spayed as it is in the genes. That's what people do not understand, it is not only essential that the bitch to be mated and the studdog are free of any health issues but also all the siblings as they have the same genes - a matter of phenotype and genotype.

"In my breed (Brittanys - the breed came to the Uk in 1982/3) we had a problem with epilepsy in the mid/late 80's - it came in from France with some of the imported stock.  Within a couple of  years it was all but eradicated, due to responsible breeders neutering all carriers they could trace, and now the only rare time it is seen is from breeders of 'one off' litters or who have not deep knowledge of the breed. "
That is absolutely brilliant. I congratualate all your breeders for being so responsible and comitted. That makes one start to hope again. Unfortunaltely in other breeds breeders are not so responsible and unfortunately only think about their short time profit and not the breed.

"our early breeders went back to France for replacement tested stock at some expense to rejuvenate the gene pool , so it seems to me that is what Setter breeders could do.  "
One problem is that most dogs on the continent are either totally different in type and no breeder in the UK would use them or they are too closely related to what is here and some of the same health issues are showing there as will skin disease. deafness, hd, thyroid problems, certain strains of cancer to name only a few.


Reply to Helen VF
"Is there such a big problem with english setters in the rest of the world?  They seem popular on the continent, certainly as a working breed.  The sire of my youngest is an import from Italy."
The working breed is a totally different strain and in looks etc totally different. I think it would be a VERY good idea to incorpurate them in the breeding program but none of the big breeders here wats to do that as they know they would stand no chance with the offspring in the showring and all they care about is success.

 

[doganjo]

One problem is that most dogs on the continent are either totally different in type and no breeder in the UK would use them

I think that could be a problem - it is the same with those breeds that have split into work and show.  I cannot count the number of times I have been asked if my dogs are from working lines or show ones and have to explain that mine is a dual purpose breed that is both.

I am so sorry about your breed, I had no idea the problem was so bad in English Setters.  You are right of course, I wouldn't see any skin problems in the show ring, and if there was any suspicion then a championship show judge would be expected to ask for a vet check.  So perhaps on this occasion the KC are right in allowing cross breeding between Irish Setters and Irish red and White.  Time will tell.  But I hope such huge problems never happens in Brittanys as there is no other similar breed.

[Sylvia]

I believe the same thing is happening in Bloodhounds i.e. allowing non KC working hounds to cross with KC registered hounds to improve eyes etc.