[Perdita]

  But I hope such huge problems never happens in Brittanys as there is no other similar breed.

So do I, keeping fingers crossed that all breeders of your breed will stick to health checks etc and just follow common sense. I think the split between show and working lines is very bad for any breed as the show lines tend to loose strength and health. What you want is a beautiful dog but it also has to be able to do a days work. That's what their original purpose was for and to keep a gundog just as a lapdog is ludicrous

[Moleskins]

I believe the same thing is happening in Bloodhounds i.e. allowing non KC working hounds to cross with KC registered hounds to improve eyes etc.

Which ones have the weak eyes ? The working hounds or the KC registered ones.

[Beewyched]

  But I hope such huge problems never happens in Brittanys as there is no other similar breed.

So do I, keeping fingers crossed that all breeders of your breed will stick to health checks etc and just follow common sense. I think the split between show and working lines is very bad for any breed as the show lines tend to loose strength and health. What you want is a beautiful dog but it also has to be able to do a days work. That's what their original purpose was for and to keep a gundog just as a lapdog is ludicrous

I so totally agree with you both - especially after what I saw yesterday - OMG Irish Setters that look more like whippets in wigs    "Fit for purpose" no way would some of them do a days work    In the past I've also seen English Setters that could barely run back up the triangle being awarded CCs   
 

[doganjo]

I so totally agree with you both - especially after what I saw yesterday - OMG Irish Setters that look more like whippets in wigs    "Fit for purpose" no way would some of them do a days work    In the past I've also seen English Setters that could barely run back up the triangle being awarded CCs 

I think this is happening in all breeds just now.  Due to the greatly reduced entries(economic pressure), lower quality dogs are getting higher awards - and unfortunately it's people like me that are letting that happen - Judges!!!
There are a number of 'cheap champions' now.   There are a few in our breed.  But wait till SKC next year - bet you I'll only have an entry of about a dozen because they know what I'll do - withhold if I feel the quality isn't good enough. .  You can bet too that if I award the CCs the dogs I choose will have deserved it.

[Beewyched]

I so totally agree with you both - especially after what I saw yesterday - OMG Irish Setters that look more like whippets in wigs    "Fit for purpose" no way would some of them do a days work    In the past I've also seen English Setters that could barely run back up the triangle being awarded CCs 

I think this is happening in all breeds just now.  Due to the greatly reduced entries(economic pressure), lower quality dogs are getting higher awards - and unfortunately it's people like me that are letting that happen - Judges!!!
There are a number of 'cheap champions' now.   There are a few in our breed.  But wait till SKC next year - bet you I'll only have an entry of about a dozen because they know what I'll do - withhold if I feel the quality isn't good enough. .  You can bet too that if I award the CCs the dogs I choose will have deserved it.

Good on you Annie    it's a shame more judges don't have the same morals as you - I remember being told by a judge "I would have given it to your boy, but I need to use his brother on my bitch as you're so difficult to get to"   
Turned-out Karma sorted that one - he couldn't "do the job" & has now been retired 

[Moleskins]

I don't know all about the dog show world, so can only guess at the meaning of some of your jargon.
However it does seem that Doganjo and I agree at least partly on some things.
Bet you thought you'd never see that day. 

[Beewyched]

I don't know all about the dog show world, so can only guess at the meaning of some of your jargon.
However it does seem that Doganjo and I agree at least partly on some things.
Bet you thought you'd never see that day. 

Sorry - for all you duggles (non-doggy folk) out there;
SKC = Scottish Kennel Club
CC = Challenge Certificate - basically if a dog/bitch gets 3 they then become a Show Champion & can put (well the owner    ) Sh. Ch. infront of their name - usually attracting use at stud/commands a bigger stud fee/puppies sold at a higher price    - you probably get the drift.

[doganjo]

I don't know all about the dog show world, so can only guess at the meaning of some of your jargon.
However it does seem that Doganjo and I agree at least partly on some things.
Bet you thought you'd never see that day. 

Sorry - for all you duggles (non-doggy folk) out there;
SKC = Scottish Kennel Club
CC = Challenge Certificate - basically if a dog/bitch gets 3 they then become a Show Champion & can put (well the owner    ) Sh. Ch. infront of their name - usually attracting use at stud/commands a bigger stud fee/puppies sold at a higher price    - you probably get the drift.

And all three CCs must be from three different judges, AND if it is a Gundog it can only become a full Champion if it passes a Show Gundog Working certificate or gets an award at a proper Field Trial, whereas other Groups get their full championship straight away.

[Beewyched]

I don't know all about the dog show world, so can only guess at the meaning of some of your jargon.
However it does seem that Doganjo and I agree at least partly on some things.
Bet you thought you'd never see that day. 

Sorry - for all you duggles (non-doggy folk) out there;
SKC = Scottish Kennel Club
CC = Challenge Certificate - basically if a dog/bitch gets 3 they then become a Show Champion & can put (well the owner    ) Sh. Ch. infront of their name - usually attracting use at stud/commands a bigger stud fee/puppies sold at a higher price    - you probably get the drift.

And all three CCs must be from three different judges, AND if it is a Gundog it can only become a full Champion if it passes a Show Gundog Working certificate or gets an award at a proper Field Trial, whereas other Groups get their full championship straight away.

  sorry Annie - forgot about that stuff 

[Moleskins]

I'm genuinely not trying to    here but if we only breed from CC or FTC stock isn't this where we run into problems with a small gene pool, health issues and nowhere to go to resolve those problems. Of course any breeding dogs should be healthy in many ways, but do we tie ourselves in a knot by putting restrictions on breeding as have been discussed previously. Does encouraging sterilisation add to these problems?
Discuss.

[Old Shep]

Sorry I really have to stick up for setters in this country!  Irish setters are not thick - not the working type anyway, and there are quite a few breeders of them in this country. There are a few working English around but not enough and they are fabulous to watch working!  Gordons are similarly rare on the working side and just a few lines but some are being brought in from Scandinavia and other European countries.  Maybe if the show stock are all riddled with health problems they may look at real working dogs to put some robustness back in the breeds...    Personally I applaud the KC for approving the crosses of IRW to Irish to get some strength back in the breed. Don't forget all pedigrees are originally cross breeds 

[Beewyched]

Shep - I get where you're coming from  .  We have an Irish & 2 English & they're great dogs to have around - albeit a little selective of hearing when the're off the lead & ranging 
I believe there has been over-use & inbreeding of certain lines - due to their "titles", resulting in a very clear distinction of either show or working types, when the dogs should be "dual purpose" this is also exacerbating, if not causing many breed-related health problems.
I'm all for bringing the "types" back together for welfare reasons.

[SteveHants]

Sureley 'health tested' is not the same as 'tiny gene pool'?


If you keep breeding like to like, even if you only breed from the healthy ones, you are constricting the gene pool and more and more defects will start to show up. Any animal bred from healthy parents where a breed or type has genetic defects can show up the defects, depending on whether the genes that code for the problem are recessive etc.

[HelenVF]

An English setter doing what she was bred to do:

http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=26332.0

Just heard of a friend who is showing an imported an english setter.

Helen

[Beewyched]

An English setter doing what she was bred to do:

http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=26332.0

Just heard of a friend who is showing an imported an english setter.

Helen