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Author Topic: Newbie to sheep...  (Read 7276 times)

fairhaven

  • Joined Jul 2012
  • Norfolk
    • The Hazy Rainbow
Newbie to sheep...
« on: July 30, 2012, 10:08:30 am »
Hi All   :wave:

 I know this seems silly to most people, but we all need to start somewhere  ;D

We have got a 6 month old ram (Norfolk horn)  and soon to be getting a young ewe lamb & an older ewe - When can we put them in together?   Is it best to put them together just for tupping and keep the ram away from them for the rest of the year?  Or can they be kept together and just remove him before lambing?
He is living with the ponies so not alone, but I feel so sorry for him without other sheep to play with...  ::)
Sheep: North Ronaldsay & 4 Horned Hebridean - We also breed & exhibit 3 breeds of rabbit - Chinchilla, Deilenaar (rare breed) & Colour Pointed English Angora.

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Newbie to sheep...
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2012, 10:46:49 am »
It's not silly at all and is a perennial question.  As you say, it's unfair to keep a sheep on its own.  The usual solution with tups/rams is to have either a barren ewe (not sure where you find one of those) or a wether to keep him company.  However, some people keep their tup in with the ewes year round, and watch carefully at lambing time for any rough behaviour.  There are breeders who find this works fine for them and others who would never do it.   Keeping a tup in with ewes year round does mean that you have no way of knowing when your ewes will lamb.  It also means that it is difficult to give the ewes extra feeding coming up to lambing - the tup will push them out of the way to get it for himself, and male sheep must not eat ewe pencils as they can give them bladder stones, which are potentially fatal.
We have always found it best to keep our tups away from the females except at tupping time, which for us is all of November and a bit of December, to start lambing at the end of March, and not extend too far into May. We keep our stock tups and any males fattening for meat together, so there's quite a gang.
 
Norfolk Horns are beautiful sheep - we would love some pics once the ewes arrive.  :sheep: :sheep:
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

fairhaven

  • Joined Jul 2012
  • Norfolk
    • The Hazy Rainbow
Re: Newbie to sheep...
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2012, 02:06:22 pm »
 :thumbsup:  Thank you fleecewife - That does help...
I don't think we will leave him in with them, Maybe when we have more experience with sheep & have had our first lambing season.  In the meantime I shall have to hope Timmy will be happy with the ponies & not keep calling out to the girls in another paddock... Or is that likely to be a problem?   At the moment he is a very laid back, quiet boy but that may change I suppose when the ladies arrive?   If we have to find a wether for him I suppose we will have too, but we can't really afford to keep something as a companion only...   
Sheep: North Ronaldsay & 4 Horned Hebridean - We also breed & exhibit 3 breeds of rabbit - Chinchilla, Deilenaar (rare breed) & Colour Pointed English Angora.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Newbie to sheep...
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2012, 02:22:00 pm »
All livestock really need a companion of their own species. 

I don't know how quickly Norfolk Horns mature, but would it be possible for you to retain a wether lamb or two each year, selling them (or eating them) at the end of the following summer when the tup goes back to the ewes?  (Whilst retaining a pair from that year's lambing for tup's company when he leaves the ladies.)

Otherwise, maybe another smallholder near to you would love to lodge their tup with yours in the non-working period?  It's a problem all small flock owners have, how to keep the tup happy when he's not working.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

fairhaven

  • Joined Jul 2012
  • Norfolk
    • The Hazy Rainbow
Re: Newbie to sheep...
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2012, 03:12:36 pm »
 :wave: Hi Sallyintnorth
I can't believe I didn't think of actually eating the wether later on  :dunce:  ;D  That sound like a good plan  :thumbsup:   From next year when we start our lambing experience, that should work out quite well.

 For now... I've just been let down on the older ewe  >:(   but picking up a ewe lamb in a couple of days time - Assuming that she cant live with Timmy incase he is old enough to mount her,  Looks like another young lamb by herself  :'(

Not a very good start to creating our little herd!   
Sheep: North Ronaldsay & 4 Horned Hebridean - We also breed & exhibit 3 breeds of rabbit - Chinchilla, Deilenaar (rare breed) & Colour Pointed English Angora.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Newbie to sheep...
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2012, 06:21:46 pm »
Ummm... well, if it's sheep, it'll be a flock.   ;) :D

Sounds like you need a couple of anythings-will-do for now, for the freezer as soon as they can be replaced, one to keep her company and one for him!  Hopefully you'll have a few more than just one hogg for him next tupping time - or the pressure will be on her to have one of each so you can keep each of them company for the following year!  :D
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

fairhaven

  • Joined Jul 2012
  • Norfolk
    • The Hazy Rainbow
Re: Newbie to sheep...
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2012, 08:27:34 pm »
 ok  FLOCK!!!  :dunce:  ;D

We've had Horses & pigs longer than sheep so 'herd' is a habit!   (And I've only had 3 cups of coffee today which doesn't help!)

Sally, Your advice is really helpful  :thumbsup:   & the 'anything for now'  is good, then eat them later - Have just seen a couple of soay nearby, so I shall email them...   :fc:
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 09:25:42 pm by fairhavenfarm »
Sheep: North Ronaldsay & 4 Horned Hebridean - We also breed & exhibit 3 breeds of rabbit - Chinchilla, Deilenaar (rare breed) & Colour Pointed English Angora.

Bionic

  • Joined Dec 2010
  • Talley, Carmarthenshire
Re: Newbie to sheep...
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2012, 07:58:10 am »
ok  FLOCK!!!  :dunce: ;D

 Have just seen a couple of soay nearby, so I shall email them...   :fc:

Fairhaven, you obviously have very IT literate soay's near you  ;D ;D
Sally
Life is like a bowl of cherries, mostly yummy but some dodgy bits

Blackbird

  • Joined Jul 2012
Re: Newbie to sheep...
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2012, 09:35:24 am »
Fleecewife, you've made me really worried now! What are ewe pencils? I've been feeding my little flock of 3 wethers and 2 ewes daily with a handful (between them) of sheep food pellets from Countrywide Farmers (their own brand) for bucket training purposes. They are described as:

 "Shepherds Choice 18 Ewe Nut 25kg. Shepherds Choice is dual-purpose feed designed to maintain flock lambing percentage supplementing both lowland and upland ewes fed grass silage or hay, and for winter feeding of ewes and store lambs. oil 4%, Protein 18%, Fibre 14% and Ash 9%". Should I stop? :o
Where are we going - and why am I in this handcart?

Blackbird

  • Joined Jul 2012
Re: Newbie to sheep...
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2012, 09:45:14 am »
A quick addition to my earlier post - I see Countrywide also sell something called "Ewe Rolls" and it says in the description online that they shouldn't be fed to rams (it doesn't say that about the ewe nuts). Are these what are meant by "ewe pencils?". Thanks for any advice - my sheep husbandry course isn't until 1st September, so I'm relying on advice from you lovely people, the vet and my sheep-keeping land neighbour for now!

PS. Sorry to hijack your thread Fairhavenfarm!  :wave:
Where are we going - and why am I in this handcart?

fairhaven

  • Joined Jul 2012
  • Norfolk
    • The Hazy Rainbow
Re: Newbie to sheep...
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2012, 09:53:47 am »
 ;D  Hi Blackbird 

 Well I wanted to know what I could put with my 6mth old ram lamb & I found out that it can't be the 6mth old ewe lamb that we are picking up  ::)    At least I now know that I need to find a couple of wethers to be eaten later!  Or another ewe for our little girl!   
 I will just ask though... Are  :sheep: as addictive as  :&> ?    We were only going to have a few ducks & now we have loads...  :innocent:         
Sheep: North Ronaldsay & 4 Horned Hebridean - We also breed & exhibit 3 breeds of rabbit - Chinchilla, Deilenaar (rare breed) & Colour Pointed English Angora.

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Newbie to sheep...
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2012, 11:39:54 am »
 :D :D  I think we all go through a stage of our stock numbers taking over as it's just so lovely having all those wonderful animals.  Eventually though good sense kicks in and we cut back to a reasonable number which we can manage to look after and for which we have enough feed.  In the past we had far too many Muscovies as they kept rearing new clutches - eventually the gang rapes and all that duck poop got to us and we cut right back (now we have none  :( )  Similarly with sheep, for one reason and another, including the year of Foot & Mouth, our sheep numbers have sometimes crept up above what is sensible, and this has been reflected in generally poorer animals and us struggling to keep up with the work.  Currently we are at an all-time low with sheep numbers because of my health issues, and it's really much more enjoyable.
 
Blackbird - it's one of the additives in ewe feed which causes the problems with male sheep.  I should have looked this up because for a couple of years I've been saying 'it's either magnesium or manganese, or something'  ::) .  Whatever it is, it causes stones to grow in the kidneys or bladderr and when these are passed they can block the urethra (the tube from bladder to outside) and cause terminal urinary retention - the quick treatment is apparently to cut off the very tip of the penis to release the backed-up urine, so a vet told me.  I think I prefer prevention.  Anyway, the thing to do is probably to check with the manufacturer direct, as it's not obvious from your ingredients list whether or not whatever it is is present or not in your feed. You could check with them too just what it is and we will all be the wiser then  :) .    'Pencils' are just the smaller shaped feed, like skinny ewe rolls  (which my ewes won't touch)
Maybe Sallyintnorth or someone else can remember which mineral it is which must not be fed to male sheep???
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 11:44:44 am by Fleecewife »
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Newbie to sheep...
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2012, 12:54:07 pm »
Our feed merchant told me it's the other way about, Fleecewife; the manufacturers have to put an additive in to make the feed suitable for tups - and they don't in all of the feeds, sadly. 

Reading up, the formation of urinary calculi (stones in the bladder or ureter) is more likely when animals are fed a high phosphorus diet, and less likely if the diet is higher in calcium than in phosphorus, preferably about 2:1.

As far as I can tell from reading up, all animals (both sexes, sheep and goats too, apparently) can be affected, but clinical symptoms are actually most likely in early-castrated wethers, because their penis is less developed, so there's less room for a stone to exist and not cause a problem. 

However, it seems to be only recently that sheep feed manufacturers have realised that they need to add extra calcium to store lamb feeds as well as to feeds formulated specifically for tups, as the condition can affect store wether and tup lambs just as easily - or moreso - as it does adult, working tups.

So for the moment, unless the packaging says 'suitable [or unsuitable] for tups / rams', I think you have to ask the manufacturer directly in order to be sure.  I asked the supplier we use for our lamb cake, and they had to check to be sure.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

fairhaven

  • Joined Jul 2012
  • Norfolk
    • The Hazy Rainbow
Re: Newbie to sheep...
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2012, 01:34:40 pm »
ok  FLOCK!!!  :dunce: ;D

 Have just seen a couple of soay nearby, so I shall email them...   :fc:

Fairhaven, you obviously have very IT literate soay's near you  ;D ;D
Sally


Not so IT literate  ;D   They haven't replied, but it's an oldish advert so they probably sold & didn't remove the ad before they left!   :D    Have now found some oldie ewe's (Hebridean)  to be picked up next week so they will keep the little girl company & graze the tracks.   And can borrow a wether to keep Timmy company until the end of the year... Problem solved  :thumbsup:
Sheep: North Ronaldsay & 4 Horned Hebridean - We also breed & exhibit 3 breeds of rabbit - Chinchilla, Deilenaar (rare breed) & Colour Pointed English Angora.

Blackbird

  • Joined Jul 2012
Re: Newbie to sheep...
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2012, 02:12:01 pm »
Glad you found some company for Timmy - what a handsome boy!

Thanks Fleecewife and Sallyintnorth on your male lamb feed advice. I found this helpful article which explained things as well: http://www.heygatesfeeds.co.uk/SheepFeeds/UrinaryCalculi.aspx

I won't feed my boys any more of the ewe nuts as I don't think they're suitable (they've only had a tiny handful a day since I got them 2 weeks ago, so hopefully there's no harm done). I've found some lamb nuts which are suitable for either sex, so will use these instead for getting them to come to me to be looked over.
Where are we going - and why am I in this handcart?

 

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