[arl]

Sorry got bogged down and missed a bit it deviated
Arl

[MAK]

Interesting read so far.
I think we may raise a few eyebrows here but we do opperate within local law and are registered keepers of pigs for home use.
Our 2 pigs were slaughtered very professionally outside their sty in March,cleaned and wrapped in cloth then hung overnight in our barn. The experienced slaughterer was our neighbour and he  took a bucket of blood and returned with black pudding the next day. I butchered the pigs in our kitchen using sterilized tools and good hygiene - the OH weighed, labelled and bagged. She took charge of making hams, bacon and the 3 different sauasages. We have not sold any meat but I did stuff a head, a few joints and some chops in bags for our neighbours.

Now this may all sound outrageous given the strict regs quoted above but is it not what smallholding should be about. Good animal welfare, simple and practical stratergies, a few skills, pleasure, satisfaction and sharing with friends and neighbours ( who return the kind).

[oaklandspigs]

The reason I quoted the law was that this is a complicated area legally - in fact what you are doing Mak comes under some even more obscure laws to do with "placing on the market". I quote so that people know what they should do to be legal, not to judge or condemn, and to help them avoid being done by the nanny state we live in nowadays.
 
Officialdom enters every nook and cranny of our lives nowadays, and you make your choices as to what laws you obey, and how open you are about this.  I suspect that the vast majority of people reading this post have driven (or been driven without complaining) in a 30mph limit at a faster speed than this.  Drive at 45mph past a school at 3.15pm, and you should in my view be done.  Do it at 3.15am and I would suggest you should not.
 
A return to more sensible days when you did people for doing wrong, rather than stop them doing anything that could go wrong in the first place, but no-one has even sucessfully backed out a regulation once made, and no-one is allowed to decide risk for themselves.  Right I have now got off the soapbox !
 
 
 

[lachlanandmarcus]

good post oaklands, I dont think anyone on the thread is really necessarily 100% to the letter on everything, and common sense can and should prevail.....hopefully the thread will mean that when common sense or neighbourliness etc means deviating from 'the Rules', one is aware of that fact and assessing that the benefits of doing so outweigh any theoretical risks.

[robert waddell]

mak is in France and although part of the EU the rules and regs are wildly different from here in the UK and even in the UK it depends on the area that you live in  and what problems that EH officer has come across
interesting the bit about labelling and does the butcher that is doing the cutting packing and labelling put his labels on or yours on that has /has not been approved if it is his then (splitting hairs)there is no real identity to that product being yours other than coming out your freezer

[harry]

had our 7 kune kunes butchered 2 weeks ago  we shared it half and half with sons family, so far us 2 have  had hot dogs a few times, burgers, ribs, belly, shoulder, chops, scotch eggs (our meat our duck eggs)....you  have a family of 5.... i wouldnt be parting with any of it how big are they and how long will it take to grow the next lot........ one down side is i useually buy a rack of ribs when i go to a resturant, now ive had my own kk ribs i cant buy them at a restaraunt anymore

[princesspiggy]

we are a family of 5 and could easily eat 3 6mth old finishers a year. it keeps v well in a deep freeze.
if uv only raised 2 and hvent anymore yet, id keep it yourselves.

[si-mate]

Lots, if you are packing yourself, then EH will need to approve your premises.
 
On labelling, you'll come under the Food Labelling Regulations 1996 (FLR) which say you must describe the product correctly eg “leg of pork” is leg meat from a pig, it must have a weight that is correct (both not over or under – EH usually approve your scales), have a use by date that has a logic behind it, and any storage instructions relevant to that (eg keep refrigerated if your use by date assumes that it is kept in a fridge).  Where there are additional ingredients, these must be listed (but some are allowed to be excluded) in QUID order.
 
You’ll also come under the Meat Products Regulations 2003 for your sausages, with a sausage needing to contain at least 32% pig meat, and if you are going to call it a “pork sausage” then at least 42% pork meat.  Having said that “meat” is defined by EC directive 2000/13 as amended by directive 2001/101 as “Skeletal muscles of mammalian and bird species recognised as fit for human consumption with naturally included or adherent tissue where total fat and connective tissue do not exceed”...fat 30% connective tissue 25%. 
 
So a pork sausage can consist of 42% meat, which in turn may only have 45% real meat, in other words a “pork sausage” may actually only have 19% meat, with the rest being fat, connective tissue, rusk or other fillers.

That's very helpful, thank you. None of the issues there would be a problem.
Would a domestic kitchen be suitable as premises or are we looking at plastic panelled walls, stainless steel benches etc.?

[robert waddell]

if the meat for your own consumption you can slice it and dice wherever you deam appropriate if not then it has to be in a separate building  with wash down walls plastic/tiles  and all stainless equipment 

[MAK]

Yes as Robert says I live n France and the point of my post was to demonstrate how the heavy regulations may not apply in other parts and just how it restricts traditional lifestyles ( smallholding) and that thing called goodwill - giving or swapping with others. I understand the concern for food standards (given the farming/ production disasters in recent times) but the laws and officaldom have changed an age old way of life and the nanny state has won in the UK.
I say swap your surplus meat with friends or family and ask for things in return that have value for you. Maybe that keeps you within the law and helps you sleep at night.

[oaklandspigs]

I say swap your surplus meat with friends or family and ask for things in return that have value for you. Maybe that keeps you within the law and helps you sleep at night.

If only it did - technically as long as the meat has been killed in an abattoir, cut in a cutting plant, packaged there, labelled correctly, displayed (if need be) in hygienic surroundings & moved at correct temperatures, then you're all ok.  Any change to any of the above starts to get you into more murky waters.
 
Giving meat away is still considered a "placing on the market" so is not allowed unless the above is followed.
 
For instance a butcher as opposed to a cutting plant (the latter has a meat inspector present) means that legally you cannot sell your meat to the public (this is the difference between a wholesale butcher and a retail butcher). I don't know any TS that will do you for this, but that is the law, although as far as I know you can still sell privately from a retail butcher - that is to persons known to you under a personal agreement between you - ie not advertised.
 
Killing yourself - that is killing the animal not suicide! (or any killing at home by anyone else) means only your immediate family living with you can eat it.
 
Start doing a process to meat - eg sausages, cutting at home, or cooking and you'll need EH involved, and need a food certificate.  Packaging and labelling within a domestic environment is possible, but you'll need to satisfy EH that you can get and keep your surfaces clean - that means no pets in the house, and the right weigh kit!  We have friends who used to do this, but TS were very hot on them and regularly checked, and they had a chill van that the meat came straight out of and straight back into, then direct to farmers market - a domestic fridge would be a real no-no.  Anything beyond just packing, and you'll need dedicated areas - expect to pay several thousand and not be able to use it for anything else !
 
 
 
 

[robert waddell]

this is getting very interesting oaklands from what you have printed in your last post  unless the producer of pork has the cutting plant and all that goes with it IE fridge van food hygiene certificates public liability insurance etc   they are stuffed or cant do it  unless they eat it themselves
we have come across the placing on the market at the gow show with sausage samples from the sausage comp the first show in Scotland to ban the handing out of samples and touch and go whether the judge was allowed to even taste them but as with all things legal it is interpretation 

[princesspiggy]

i know someone who had the refridgerated container (ie without the lorry section) to use as a kitchen, on the farm. EH approved it and was a v clever idea.

[robert waddell]

 i knew of two instances one was a small van body the other was a refrigerated container as both had the certificates before EH could not withhold them

[HappyHippy]

we have come across the placing on the market at the gow show with sausage samples from the sausage comp the first show in Scotland to ban the handing out of samples and touch and go whether the judge was allowed to even taste them but as with all things legal it is interpretation 

Ah, but you didn't speak to the EH who covers South Lanarkshire (or, if you did - it couldn't have been Carol)
You can't give/sell/hand out samples of anything that's been made in a non-approved premises (anyone making them at home) but you could have handed out the butcher made ones, so long as you follow the rules and regs relating to food hygiene with raw & cooked meats and have product/public liability insurance    That's what I was told during a phonecall to aforementioned EH officer   
I have a sheet designed for folk going to farmers markets and handing out samples, I'll email it to Lil if you want, it gives good guidance - but as I say, it doesn't apply to anyone making them at home    Unless they've got EH approval.
Karen