[plumseverywhere]

Hello


I grew up with GSD's and then worked with a breeder for a few years as a teen (w/end and holiday job in boarding and breeding kennels!) but my first love is Border Collies. I've never owned one and wondered if you could give me some pointers as we are months/years away from actually having a dog of our own currently.
With the sad realisation that cats are not safe living in our home due to the road I want to think ahead. We still have Snowball, our siameseX so I wouldnt' want to drive her away by bringing in a new pet now and obviously want to be well informed so that any decisions we make will be good  ones re: new dog.


We do have a small flock of sheep and yes it would be handy to have a dog that could work with them but that's not the main reason for my liking the collies. I have children too so that is a consideration and would quite possibly mean extra research into making sure we buy from the right breeding lines for temperament - am I right?


I have also been told that some dogs are quite good for helping with rat/mouse control?! with the lack of cats that we will have in the future, this would be useful! I didn't want to go with a terrier though in case a little dog could get through small gaps in hedges etc onto *that* horrible road.


Sorry this is a bit ofa muddled post, it is early days and with all things animal/smallholding I do trust the opinions from you all here as you are the voice of experience  [size=78%]  [/size]

[jaykay]

Compared with GSDs I find collies more sensitive, brighter and more 'obsessive-compulsive', having had both - I suppose more highly strung all round.


We've always had collies round kids, never had an issue. However, some collies can be snappy and a bit 'neurotic'. Plenty of exercise helps and they need something constructive to do. More exercise needed than a GSD despite the GSDs bigger size.


To be absolutely honest, much as I love my collies, if I was looking for a family pet I'd go for a gun dog, especially Labradors or retrievers. There's a reason they're as popular as they are. Not much good for working sheep though.

[robert waddell]

if you want a good collie are you going to be a good trainer     the dog is the environment that it is brought up with  one reared in the house with all the noises and used to people and children will become a member of the family far more easily than one dragged out the kennel on viewing day
you are far to far away from us to get one from us     all pups look cute resist that temptation  to save them and give them a better home or lifestyle  and dear ones are no better than cheaper ones
all dogs will bite   when at the puppy nibbling stage just hold there mouth closed and say no hold them like this to they start to whinge  they soon get the message  my dog has never shown its teeth to us and it was trained this way
everybody says collies need exercise well ours are not exercised they get out to run about  several times a day and none the worse for that
all dogs and any animal can go loopy at anytime sad to say that is the only thing that a buyer cant prevent     the breeder can because they know the temperament of the animals they have but the cash register kicks in before there credibility

[plumseverywhere]

Thank you Jaykay and Robert. All interesting points which I have taken on board 


we just took a wander around the local Dogs Trust - not for any reason other than I wanted to get a feel for how hubby and kids are feeling about a dog one day. TBH my husband is still not a 'dog person' and that was quite evident in the body language I could see in him all the way round - apart from when 4 small mastiff type pups all filed out into one run and he showed a glimmer of interest at the 'cute factor' but absolutely no sparks with the dogs I said anything about. I don't think we are going to be a dog owning family any time soon - it's almost like any dog living here would be resented by him, just my instinct there.
Having said that, he doesnt' really like goats or sheep either but will get involved if needed - then again, they live in the field and he doesn't have to share a home with them.
Shame you and I live so far apart Robert, would have been nice to have got a pup (if we were to) from someone on here who I've got to know over time.   

[YorkshireLass]

No harm in getting your thoughts in order, regardless of how things turn out with OH


The following points are my thoughts and experiences, I have one middle aged (working) collie and have had her nearly 18 months now. She's my first dog, but I do tend to read around a lot and "absorb" ideas from watching friends etc.


I'm incredibly lucky - she's so laid back I suspect she's "special"    this means she can be left at home without destroying anything, she travels pretty well, she's good with other dogs, her recall is 90-95% spot on, she is loving and cute...
Other collies are always on the go, can get obsessed very easily with a ball or a toy or other animals (sheep, livestock), or chasing cars, or chasing lights/shadows.
It's a fine line between genius and madness as they say.
Heaven for my dog would be trundling around at my heels all day, snuffling about in the field as I faff with a water trough etc, with some playtimes with other dogs.


I have used bite inhibition on friends' pups and it seemed to work - basically when the pup nips in play, you "yelp" then sulk - copying what a littermate would do. Takes a bit of time to sink in, but you're doing this while they're still babies.


My dog's very sensitive, so I am careful with my tone of voice, and I make sure not to stare her down. Any reprimand is a gruff "no", then a light and cheerful "come here then" / let's go do something fun. I'm not a bully, but I'm not a soft touch either. Gentle insistence on things like giving her pills or trimming her claws - a bit parental if you like.
Other dogs will cheerfully put up with you screaming blue murder while they eat a rotten fox corpse 


Obvious things I didn't necessarily think of:
Make sure you can carry and lift your dog, or have reliable help on hand. God forbid something happens to them and you need to get them off your field and to the vet, into the car, etc. Worth practising so they're not too wriggly.
Days out, visits to relatives etc - can you take the dog? Can you leave them safely in the car? Is it too hot/cold for that? Just needs some negotiation and planning. My girl is scared of strangers, so "babysitting" doesn't really work out.
Public transport - rules vary, and dog might be terrified (mine hid behind my knees - her default setting).
Poo - lovely thought! But at least one deposit a day, that's a lot of poo bags in landfill, or can you set up a dog poo wormery....think about fencing them out of your fruit/veg patch, but then they'll poo on your garden path just in time for the postman.... Bitches' urine kills grass too.


As a farmy-outdoorsy type you'll be used to mud, muck and hair, but it's worth repeating. I can take my boots off at the door, but no matter how long I shut her in the kitchen to dry off, she always finds something to smear along the hallway 


Hope that's a little helpful!


(I can't believe how short a time I've had her, but she's with me for good now)

EDIT - there are "bargains" out there. I got an incredible "deal" for a working dog because it was a gamble due to her shyness etc. Don't discount a dog with issues - they may not even *be* issues for you if you're a good match. Same applies to rescue dogs etc

[sabrina]

Having been A German Shepherd owner in the past and now we have Rascal the Border Collie. He is just over 9 months old, very clever but is a sensitive soul. Good with our grandchildren but very wary of  strangers. He is ok with our other animals even the chickens. He is out with me most of the time I am working outside but that is about all the exercise he gets.

[sabrina]

Yesterday, David my farmer friend came to inject my lambs. I was outside with Rascal who is all bark and carry on when anyone drives up but brave he is not. No matter how hard David tried to coax him over Rascal was having none of it. You would have thought the devil himself had come to visit. David was very taken with him saying he was a top dog. I asked his advice on training telling him what I had done so far. Seems I am on the right track but he mentioned that getting a good DVD on working dogs would be the best way to go. David and his wife spent yesterday getting in his sheep to inject his own lambs. Took all afternoon, my 2 just followed the dog and myself because that is what they have been used to.When i am working outside I have him with me, picking up droppings in the paddocks, cleaning out the hens, moving the lambs or bringing in the ponies. he is very quick to work out where I am going and keeps a close eye on me all the time. I feel were are forming a close bond.he is like my shadow.

[SallyintNorth]

Sounds like it's not an imminent purchase, good for you giving yourself plenty of time to research and plan.
 
I don't want to be a killjoy, but my standard response to anyone wanting a collie for other than work is, "They're not pets.  They're working dogs and they need to work."  There are much better choices, for you and for the dog, for pets.  Especially in a house with cats, children, and a non-dog person. 
 
Having said all of which, if your heart is set on a collie, then try to find one that can't or won't work, has a good temperament and is ok living indoors.  (Not all take to it.)  Only thing is, in order to know it won't work, it'll be more-or-less grown up, since although some start to show interest in sheep at a very early age, some really good workers show no interest until 6 months old or later.
 
Whether you get one that wants to work sheep or not, any collie needs a lot of mental stimulation as well as physical exercise (maybe just being around robert is enough stimulation for robert's collies  ) - good alternatives to sheep work include obedience, agility, flyball and so on.  Collie OCD can make a collie hard to manage at exciting pastimes like agility, (many agility collies and one Cani-X collie I know bite their owners in their excitement) but if you can crack that then you usually have a really good performer and you both have a heck of a lot of fun.
 
You mention not wanting a terrier in case it can squeeze out of the house and get onto the road.  Well, collies are notoriously good at jumping out of, squeezing through and under - many farmers tell of a collie they simply can't keep away from work; as soon as the quad bike starts up, Houdini collie will be there in its seat.     Skip is getting on a bit and is less flexible now, but it used to be amazing to watch him pour himself up and over and through a galvanised gate to get to the sheep.
 
Surprisingly, and possibly uniquely for such a thread on this forum, no-one has yet mentioned Barbara Sykes' Understanding Your Border Collie, but I would say if you are still keen on the idea then get yourself a copy and read it through.  Then in six months, read it again. 

[in the hills]

Have never owned a collie. My father trained gondogs so I grew up around these and have kept them as an adult. I can only say that chatting with my neighbour who trains collies to a high standard/competes in trials he echoes Sallyinthenorths words. Told me that he would never sell a collie into a pet home unless maybe it was a dog that he felt did not have the instinct to work. He said that in his opinion they were not suitable as pets and he would be too worried about potential problems to put his dogs into family homes.He also told me that he has to be very careful that they dont get out as their instinct is to find sheep .... anyones sheep .... to work. Guess you would need good fencing as well as your hedge.
 
Chatting to a mum at school football event at the weekend. She told me her collie had bitten her daughter near her eye in the week.She had rung the vet to discuss the matter and the vet had told her that the farmer who had sold her the collie had behaved irresponsibly and they should not be in family homes with young children as they needed to be working. She thought the dog had been alarmed at the childs actions when playing and had nipped as it might nip a sheep. She had never shown any aggression before but is highly strung/sensitive.
 
As I say I have never owned a collie and maybe if you buy from certain breeders/lines you are more likely to get a dog that fits happily into a home with children. Just thought I would share a couple of things that I have heard recently. Can recommend a labrador!!!!

[Rosemary]

We have two collies and Dan's folks have a collie x huntaway. They're all 12 ish - in fact Tess is 12 today. Much as I love them, I don't think we'll have another. It will be a "pet" breed next time.

[sabrina]

I think most working breeds can be a bit of a handful be it gun dog, sheep or police. it all depends if you understand how their brain works. Rascal has learnt that I am busy for a bit outside then have a rest before going onto another job. he is quite happy to lie at my feet and have some quite time. If I am having a day not doing a lot he goes into the back garden which is a fair size and just for the dogs. he has things to play with and can see me inside so seems happy enough. he does hate being indoors all day. The first thing I did was buy the Barbara Sykes book which I have read over and over. My dogs have to fit in with me not the other way around and so far i have never had a problem.

[plumseverywhere]

I wonder if a collieX might be an option? depending on what the collie was crossed with it could have a bit of everything I would like? still considering options...(not the fact that I fell in love with 'Ben' a collieX at the dogs trust - honest      )
Like I say, so long as Snowball the cat is still with us there will not be a dog. I wouldnt' want to bring in a dog that might spook her away, having lost our 3 cats on the road in the last 3 years. All just thinking and I am really pleased that I posted this question as I have learnt so much and it has given me a great deal to think on. 

[Old Shep]

I don't agree that border collies don't make good pets, they just need good owners!  They are perhaps not as bomb proof as say the retriever types but they can still live with children and families quite safely as long as you have the right dog for that situation.  Not all collies are the same!!  I would agree with reading the Barbara Sykes book first, and if you were to think about getting a rescue dog make sure that the rescue is a responsible one and they have made sure that the dog is family and stock friendly.  http://www.fostbc.org.uk/ run by the aforementioned Barbara Sykes is one of the best ones and worth travelling to even if you are not close by.
Good for you that you are not doing this on impulse and investigating things first 

[robert waddell]

i am with shep on this 

[plumseverywhere]

Fantastic website, thanks Shep. Have had a look on there and will study it more closely later on too. I noticed a little old lady collie on the rehoming section, current owner has arthritis so couldnt' cope. I wondered if taking on an older collie who needs gentle exercise might be a good introduction, especially if they are checked out by such an organisation and we are a good match?
Saw a lovely collie walking with his owner at school run this morning, nudged hubby and said "see, men look good with collies..." - he said "look, I've not ruled anything out have I?!"
Not a total write off then      Plenty of time for me to research, weigh up pro's and con's and meet some collie's and their owners in the flesh though.