[fleurky]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one Dixie.  Unless there is a sign asking me to keep my dogs on a lead I will continue to keep them loose but under close control - unless the situation warrants leads. I know that I am not being disrepectful, quite the opposite being a country gal through and through.  I do however admire your ethics and will even supply the sharpened sticks should my methods get me in hot water.

I believe a dog can be taught not to chase (although I don't claim all ought to be), you just have to find someone who knows how to do it, has the time to do it and the determination to see it through. And thats the problem, who has the time, the knowledge and a spare place in front of the fire ?

I've offered to have the terrier here and put it through serious boot camp.  I am confident it will learn that chasing is unwanted behaviour regardless of it being instinctive (not saying it should ever be let off a lead around sheep -  but it should be on a loose lead walking to the side of its handler and behaving respectably, not pulling on a lead whenever something darts out of a hedge). But really there is no point because the owners husband will never be assertive enough to be the boss.

 Problem is, its the relationship with the person who walks it that is every bit as important as the training - if not more important.  You can't train a dog to have self control, and not to do something it instinctivly wants to do - and then just hand it over as 'cured'.  Its a teamwork thing, the dog has to have total respect and confidence in the handler.  I havn't done any research into this SHAK thing (sorry!) but I'd say that is the reason they don't re-home.  Re-training the dog is one thing - training the human to grasp the concept and be the big cheese not just the hand that feeds is quite another.

It's quite simple, as has already been posted - if you can't keep your dog under close control at best or at worst recall your dog first time, keep it on a lead at all times.

This particular attack was 100% human error. The owners husband wandered off home without the dog when it dived after a rabbit, assuming it would come back.  He's my friend, but he's a bloody idiot - who won't do it again.  The dog found its own way into a sheep field and had no one to tell him it wasn't ok to go get the galloping woolly things.   None of us would think about wandering off home without the dog would we?!!  Still feel sick for those poor wretched lambs.  All the sheep in that field are still traumatised and bolt as soon as a dog is walked along the footpath. Horrors.

[dixie]

Fleurie, can I please book in 2 German shepherds to your boot camp 

[in the hills]

Mmmmm ..... my father trains gundogs and so I trained my dog with his. He will heel off lead and not ... go to play ... without being given the command. I agree with much of what you say but would still put him on a lead when walking through other peoples fields if there were stock around. I think if someone was walking through my fields I would feel more comfortable if their dog was on a lead, no matter how obedient they thought it was. Situations can occur where dogs behave in an unanticipated manner and peoples views of .... under control ... can be different. Some farmers are very wary of dogs being walked across their land and if my dog is at heel anyway I may as well slip his lead on and then the landowner can feel at ease.

My father would heel his dogs ... off leash ... through fields though.

[fleurky]

Ha! Yes Dixie, but you have to come too! For good behaviour, the GS's will get kind words and ears tickled, and you will get wine! =)

Agree with you too In the hills, I suppose it comes from living in an area which is mostly pastural and hence grazed.  My dogs would be on a lead pretty much all of the time - and then a dog will rely on the lead, switch off, stop thinking and making its own decisions.  I don't want mine to do that.  I want mine to be alert and in tune with me at all times. That is what tires them.  If the field is large and the livestock is well out of the way and unbothered I will work the dogs. I am though very lucky to know the land owners and farmers and we have mutual respect.

I wouldn't think it ok to take my lot somewhere I or they didn't know and let them all loose.  Not that I would be concerned about  the livestock necessarily, because I (and they) are respectful of all of that - but more about other peoples opinion (walking 3 dogs (inc a  GS) off lead anywhere can get you many a cold stare) but more specifically due to approaching dogs.  When you walk with a few dogs (I often take 6), the dogs we meet are usually nervous about approaching a  pack and can become anxious and more often than not aggressive.  This is always because the dog in question has been put on a tight lead and has lost control of its own space and is unable to react in the way it needs to. Can't blame them for 'losing it' really, must be quite intimidating.

I think I am trying to say leads are useful but they are just a prop.  Training is the key.

Gosh, it sounds like I have a pathological dislike for leads.  I must ask my mother about that.

[in the hills]

 

Arrrr ...... if you know the land owners and they know you and your dogs it is a bit different. That is partly why I asked my neighbour to try my dog in with his sheep. After hearing from others about how farmers might react to incomers dogs I thought it important that they understand that I was concerned, responsible and that my dog was relatively obedient. Well sort of  .... if you see him bounding around you wouldnt realise necessarily that he was fairly well trained and that is what worried me. Word spreads quickly around here and the farmer who said he would shoot my neighbours dog if it were on his land, never said anything to me.

So sorry about the lamb. Fingers crossed for the other poor soul.

[Brijjy]

I had a lurcher who was a gem up until he turned 2 and a half. Then he turned into a wannabe sheep killer. He didn't actually kill one but the intent was there. He was always fab around people but he buggered off from me and wouldn't come back when called.
    I tracked him down and found him hanging off the back end of a large ewe belonging to my farmer neighbour. At this point the dog was totally unresponsive to voice, with his eyes rolled back in his head and I had to literally prize him off the ewe. Luckily for her, the dog had only grabbed alot of wool and no flesh. Dog got a severe bollocking for that and was walked on a lead from then on.
  He did the same thing again when my dad had him for me while I was at work. This time he trapped two of our ewes in the shed and had pinned one against the wall. My dad gave him a wallop to get him loose but it took him to actually physically pull the dog off.
   I then made the really hard decision to have him PTS. He was the type of dog that needed to run off the lead and where I am it is sheep in every field. I had tried to retrain him but nothing worked. When I took him to the vet they refused to PTS and said that they would send him to a rehoming kennel. I didn't think it was fair to put thios problem onto new owners and said I would take the dog away. Vets refused to comply and I was so upset, crying down the phone to them, that I agreed to let them have him. As far as I'm aware he has been rehomed in London! I know that he will escalate into chasing cats etc. Needless to say I won't use those vets again. It was an awful situation to be in. I still regret letting them take the dog away and when I contacted the rehoming kennels, they hadn't been told just how bad he was around livestock.

[Moleskins]

Difficult one for you and I sympathise, blooming irresponsible of the vet and the re homing kennel IMHO.
Been talking to a girl today who is fostering a dog of about 18 weeks. With her because the owners kids were taken into care so they got a dog, which she now has 'til they re home it. When asked what breed she said it was assumed to be a cross of Husky and Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Of course it could be any Bull Terrier but it will go to someone, who won't have a clue what they're taking on. As I say irresponsible IMHO.

[lachlanandmarcus]

I have small farm with sheep and while I am happy with dogs under close control not on a lead in the normal parts, if walking through a field of sheep esp with lambs, then I think it is just a matter of courtesy for the dog to be put on a lead for that short period.
Some owners dont know their dogs as well as they think they did, some have no idea if their dog is good with stock or not or dont care. And a few (sadly it is a few) do have a well trained dog but from the farmers perspective I cant tell that, so the stress of holding my breath as they walk through is pretty great. And its avoidable, just by taking 2 seconds to pop the dog on a lead while passing through a sheep field.
So it isnt all about how good ones dog is or isnt, its also about being kind and thoughtful to ones sheep owning temporary hosts as one walks over their property and realising that stress is caused to them because they wont know the dog and its reliability.
It also is about the fact that if some walk without leads in sheep fields, others with less trained/reliable dogs take that as meaning it's an ok thing to do.
I see it as a courtesy that doesnt cost anything.

[robert waddell]

in total agreement with you lm  this whole dog /owner and letting them go where they want is totally out of hand
there is this mindset of idiots that think all the land should be open for them to do as they please and beyond reproach in doing so
all dogs have that killer instinct even well trained sheep dogs can turn     a total ban on dogs being in a field with livestock and better cooperation from the police when a dog runs amok in stock
not this stupid idea that towser is just wanting to play    well if towser is wanting to play let him lose in a primary school playground see how long towsers life is and the owners stay in that comunity

[Herdygirl]

Well said Robert.

The landowner from whom i rent has said that any dog he sees off a lead in fields where my sheep and lambs are will be shot.
When are dog owners going to get it that footpaths through farm land are for pedestrians only (dictionary definition)  they are not a dogs playground or excercise area.

[SteveHants]

I find it bordering on the offensive that anyone would conisider walking their dog off the lead through others livestock. If I see it happening, I will remonstrate with the owner, footpath or not. I don't think you can blame certain breeds of dog for attacking lambs or sheep. Dogs that kill  things have their uses, Terriers for ratting, Lurchers for taking rabbits (although Id sooner my lurcher were soft-mouthed if I had one) ergo, they should be on the leash until the owner knows an area is safe.

[lachlanandmarcus]

Thats very true about breed being no guide, four lambs were killed at a neighbours farm a few weeks back, dog seen in the act but the postlady who saw it couldnt catch it, it was a springer spaniel type and if she hadnt disturbed it, it would have carried on its way through the flock.

[sabrina]

Having had German Shepherds and still have a Jack Russel I have never had a problem with them chasing any of my animals but they are never allowed to be out without me. Would I trust them not to chase.Never. Instint is a very powerful thing in all dogs and it is people who make the mistake in believing that their dog is 100 safe and will do as they are told at all times. My neighbours had the in-laws staying. Their toy poodle got in with my mare and foals. I ended up with a foal trying to jump the fence, took the skin of his back legs. Owners could not believe that their sweet little dog had done such a thing. Now we have sheep fencing and electric fencing everywhere. If any dog owner came onto my land among our animals with their dog off the lead I would be at their throat. its plain arrogance and insulting.Also my Stallions do not like strange dogs and are very handy with their feet 

[Goldcraig]

I have a different issue....on 3 occasions now I have had to phone the farmer who owns the adjacent fields to inform him that his lambs and ewes were in my fields....they have wandered up to the house, chewed up some trees and generally made a mess...the kids love it , but on the three ocassions, my dogs haven't  been out, pure luck more than anything else. Although I'm "fairly" confident they would come back on recall, I cannot be sure....Fair play to the farmer, he fixed his fencing and it was more of an erosion issue that poor fencing....Good communications is the key for us...other annoying thing with this is that Riley loves ...and I mean loves, rolling in the sheep dung...lol

[dixie]

Goldcraig, I may be wrong but I've always been led to believe that it's your responsibility to keep livestock out, rather than the farmer to keep it in? Common sense he should keep them in but it's what we were told years ago?