The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: fleurky on May 14, 2012, 05:04:28 pm

Title: Another dog attack
Post by: fleurky on May 14, 2012, 05:04:28 pm
On Sunday a terrier tore into two lambs, both still alive but not much hope for one, and maybe a  little for the other.  The one I have (plucked it out of the field yesterday evening) is still bleeding through its wool. Its a huge lamb and has lacerations all over. 

I can't afford to take it to a vet -  I'm sure it'll be a big job. He has torn skin on back and neck (still dripping blood from neck), and actual holes in his hind legs above the hocks the size of 10p's - you can see right in to the bone. there is probably more than that but quite henestly there is not much point in me checking him over and causing further discomfort when I don't really know how to go about 'fixing' any of it.

He's huge so hard to handle. Bright as could be expected, clear eyes, eating a little grass and creep. Not bleating, quite hang dog as expected really.

The people have been very honest and come forward to take responsibility.  The farmer (owner) is looking to bill them for 2 lambs on the assumption they will both die.  I really want to at least try and treat it or if not have it 's misery ended rather than do nothing and just allow it to die slowly. 

I'm in a tricky middle ground situation, I live next door to the farmer & help out with lambing and what not but also know the dog owners quite well. How should I approach this without appearing too soft - the vets bill will most likely come to more than the value of the lamb so the farmer would not be inclined to down this route.  The dogs female owner I think would do anything possible but paying a vet bill plus giving farmer compensation anyway may be too big an ask.   

Can anyone give me advice on how to clean & dress such wounds if at all?? Best way to restrain him whilst I work?
I suspect  being put out of his misery would be the better option - but putting him throught the stress of getting to a vet isnt exactly kind either.  How do you even carry a lamb with such injuries without it suffering agony?!

Poor, poor thing.  Any help or advice greatly appreciated =(
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: dixie on May 14, 2012, 05:10:31 pm
The farmer (owner) should shoot it,  if it's too severely injured and suffering that's the kindest thing to do. The dog should be put down, or said farmer shoot that too! the dog owner read the riot act and pay compensation for lost lambs.  May sound harsh to some but it really pees me off that people just cannot control their dogs and innocent animals have to suffer.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: VSS on May 14, 2012, 05:52:39 pm
The owner of the dog should pay any vet's bill resulting from the behaviour of the dog and if the lambs die subsequently, should also pay compensation for the loss of the lamb. We have had this situation crop up several times recently and on two of those occasions we have known the owners of the dog quite well. They have been mortified by the behaviour of the dog and stumped up the money without a murmer.

Remember that you can only shoot the dog if it is actually worrying your sheep at that moment in time and if the owner is unwilling or unable to call the dog off the sheep and iti is on your private land. If you do shoot a dog, you do have to inform the police that you have done so. Be 100% sure that all your guns are legal.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: dontworkclimb on May 14, 2012, 09:29:46 pm
dogs worrying sheep is a 'little' irresponsible on part of dog owners. We have dogs and sheep but I would not trust my bitch even though she is now 12 years old. I don't hold out much hope for lambs but you could try the antibiotic jab/purple spray on wounds; however they are probably in pain and will succumb to the shock(sheep don't tent to do pain!). Really sorry to hear though
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: SallyintNorth on May 14, 2012, 10:37:43 pm
Clean the wounds at least once a day with salty warm water - it'll do far more good than the blue spray at this stage.  If the wounds become infected, use blue spray on the infected wounds and give Pen & Strep by injection.
Give vitamins either by drench or by jab for the shock.  You may need to do this for several days.
Keep it warm, dry, clean and somewhere it knows it's safe.  Fresh water available at all times.
If it isn't eating / drinking, get Pfizer Scour Formula and bottle or tube that into it, or at least give it glucose-in-water.  (You'll have to ask others about dilution rates; I always use PSF.)

Good luck  :bouquet:
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: Moleskins on May 15, 2012, 08:06:45 am
The farmer (owner) should shoot it,  if it's too severely injured and suffering that's the kindest thing to do. The dog should be put down, or said farmer shoot that too! the dog owner read the riot act and pay compensation for lost lambs.  May sound harsh to some but it really pees me off that people just cannot control their dogs and innocent animals have to suffer.
You'll be in trouble with the 'Dog' side of the forum if they read this !

For my part I agree with you. I've just dealt with a neighbours sheep that was attacked, not nice at all.
Police said dogs worrying sheep should be shot.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on May 15, 2012, 08:14:26 am

[/quote]
You'll be in trouble with the 'Dog' side of the forum if they read this !


[/quote]

Not necessarily as long as it was unavoidable and the only way to stop him 'in the act', I have two dogs incl one who is not at all livestock proof, we have spent 000s on 6-7 foot fencing to give local farmers confidence he aint going to get out, but if it happened and he attacked farm animals, then I would expect them to have to shoot him as I know he would be very hard to catch. I of course would have to live with the guilt but it would be mine and not the farmers.

However after the event I wouldnt agree with the dog being PTS as it wouldnt be stopping harm at that point, provided what caused him to be loose could be completely addressed and full compensation and vets bills paid. If the cause couldnt be addressed, then he would have to be rehomed away from livestock.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: dixie on May 15, 2012, 08:46:01 am
I've been on both sides of a dog problem. Our German shepherd whom we had had from a puppy, grew up with our horses, sheep chickens and ducks, never a problem. One day she got onto our field aged 10 and attacked our sheep, fortunately they were ok, a few bite wounds but lived! It was a one off that we didn't understand, thinking maybe a fox had got into the field and she went after it we gave her the benefit of the doubt. A week later she jumped up and bit a guy doing some work here, not a nip a proper bite, it was agonising as we loved her so much, but something had changed in her and we did the responsible thing and had her put down. I spoke to animal behaviourists, the vet and family, we decided to keep her locked up would be cruel after living here free range, rehoming would simply pass on the problem, we made the right decision.
A couple of years later our next door neighbours got an ex breeding bitch, German shepherd, it's nuts! It's gone for all of us, we secured our fencing to keep it out of our property, but we share a lane of which they seem to forget is our right of way to get to our house, one day it pinned my then 10 year old son to the fence and bit him, they witnessed it, we called the police, they refused to have to dog pts or rehomed, so a neighbourhood agreement was drawn up to say they would keep the dogs secure 24/7,
The dogs continued to escape until they finally took responsibility for them. Lately he's got relaxed with it and now walks them off the lead ( he cannot control them on the lead, his own admission) to and from his house along our lane, so yesterday we called the police again, we should have the right to use use our right of way without fear of his dogs, but they just don't get it!
If the dog worries my sheep I can shoot it, bites my son and nothing's sone, it's ridiculous. People forget dogs are animals not humans, and should be treated as such, a responsible dog owner is someone who keeps their dogs under control at all times, no exceptions!
Having a dog pts after the event is always an option, if the dogs done it once it will do it again, I could not have that on my conscience.
If It had been someone else's sheep our dog attacked I would have had her pts sleep that day.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: doganjo on May 15, 2012, 09:37:52 am
The farmer (owner) should shoot it,  if it's too severely injured and suffering that's the kindest thing to do. The dog should be put down, or said farmer shoot that too! the dog owner read the riot act and pay compensation for lost lambs.  May sound harsh to some but it really pees me off that people just cannot control their dogs and innocent animals have to suffer.
You'll be in trouble with the 'Dog' side of the forum if they read this !

For my part I agree with you. I've just dealt with a neighbours sheep that was attacked, not nice at all.
Police said dogs worrying sheep should be shot.
If you mean me and Sylvia etc I think we agree - to an extent :).  A farmer has every right to shoot a dog he sees worrying his sheep, or other livestock for that matter.  That is why my dogs are taken to a deer fenced area to run free, otherwise they are on lead.  But he doesn't have that right if he doesn't actually catch it there and then.  His recourse at that point is to notify the authorities, who SHOULD then advise the owners to keep control of it.  And I am sure we all agree that the dog owner should foot the bill for ALL the farmers losses, whether it is in an attempt to heal the animal or to have it humanely destroyed.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: PDO_Lamb on May 15, 2012, 10:04:52 am
Sorry to here of this.

I would expect a contrite dog owner to be willing to pay any vets bills incurred looking after the wefare of an animal injured beyond the scope of home care. If you are on good terms with the owner try to talk to them about the possibility of it happening again. The dog is their responsibility. Probably you should report the matter to the police so the dog has a record.

On the subject of re-homing dogs. I don't think the re-homing agencies can place dogs with a record of aggression because they would be liable for supplying a dangerous dog.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: Old Shep on May 15, 2012, 10:58:10 am
Not a good situation to be in.  If they are really suffering would'nt it be best for the vet to pts?  Dog owners should pay for this and for the value of the lambs.  But at the ed of the day the lambs belong to the farmer so he should make the decision as to whether to take them to the vets or not, but maybe if you encouraged the dog owners to offer to pay for them to go to the vets the farmer may be more willing rather than waiting to see if they live or die?

[/quote]
You'll be in trouble with the 'Dog' side of the forum if they read this !
[/quote]

Moleskins - some of the "dog side" also have sheep  :sheep: .  If the only way to stop a dog killing or maiming a sheep or lamb is to shoot at it there and then, then that's what has to be done.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: fleurky on May 15, 2012, 12:17:36 pm
Thanks all.  yes Dixie - I was thinking shooting it was the right answer too.  Farmer came and we had a good look at him. He's being quite calm at the moment (worryingly!) so i've managed to cut away the fleece to expose some really quite horrible wounds at his throat and hind legs in particular. He can get up/lie down, walk, bleat and eat though, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt (for now).

 I've bathed them with salt water (thank you Sally) and I have been given a purple spray alternative by the farmer.  The concern is infection but on the plus side there are no flies about. We are going to give him a couple of days then if he seems to be going on OK, and moving about better, we hope to bring his mother and sibling into the walled garden next door with some of the not good doers, and hope some motherly love will help.

I spoke to the owner of the dog.  She is gutted and serious pee'd off with her OH who lost the dog whilst out walking then went home in the certain knowledge he'd come back eventually (he goes off after rabbits regularly). He is seriously in the dog house and she's asked me to call him today to lay down the law about being more responsible and sort payment for all damages.

So thanks again Sally - after taking in all you have said, I'm going to contact the vet and see if he will give me the pen & strep and vits jabs  (errr not me personally ! I mean allow me to inject lamb rather than taking him on horrid journey to vet) and then the dog owners can pay for it.

They can also pay the market price for the 2 lambs regardless of their recovery.

The owner is actually in the police force, which makes her even more annoyed with her husband about the incident as there will be repurcussions at work.  It wasn't her fault, and apparently the dog doesn't run off when she takes it out - alpha female no doubt - but I guess because her OH allows it to go it's gotten into that mind set that its perfectly OK to bugger off. He said it goes after rabbits, but I'd assume it'll kill anything that moves. We live on a big shooting estate, and if the gamekeeper saw it he wouldn't think twice about shooting it.  I shall make my friend aware of this and urge him to take classes. A dog without recall isn't worth having in my humble opinion.

BTW Interesting the number of posts about German Shepherds.  I walk my  neighbours 10yr old GS with my 3 collie's, she was dreadful with sheep initially (see further down) but I have (quite literally) knocked it out of her (who says you can't teach old dogs new tricks? Hope that doesn't offend anyone, sometimes brute force and fury gets the job done).  Now I can walk her through fields off lead with them, in the full knowledge that she is under my control - she must walk behind me at all times. It would be easier to simply have her on a lead - but she has to lean self conrol and I have to learn to trust her, it works both ways - niether of us will learn if she is restrained by a lead.  It has taken over a year for us to to come to an agreement over how to behave around sheep, however I'd never trust her on her own with them, or indeed trust her with anyone else.  Saying that, last week 2 lambs squeezed out under the fence into her garden.  She lay at the back door watching them, but did nothing- I witnessed this from my office window a hundred metres away and was very proud of her self restraint.   It helps that the dog is owned by the farmers mother, so I can train her in fields of sheep with the agreement of the farmer.

Going off topic a bit - I'm fascinated by her instinctive behaviour is to get a sheep down.  I watch my collies going around - they want the sheep to see them.  I watch the GS and she goes towards them from the back - where they can't see her approach then will run alongside and bring them down by the neck, holding them down - not shaking or frenzied like a terrier, just holding.  Anyone know what GS were actually used for?  Was it actually to bring down and hold a sheep rather than herd them?   I simply can't image them herding like a collie.

Anyhoo I'll do what I can for the poor lamb. Thanks again, fingers crossed, but I still dont know if a  bullet wouldn't be the kinder option Shep. Such a hard call. I guess the difference is that he has a big flock (650 ewes and over 1000 lambs), so its about yield, he would see a visit to the vet as excessive for the sake of one lamb.  He wouldn't think it appropriate for the dog owner to be landed with a big vet bill on top of claiming compensation for the loss of the lambs.  Saying that I don't think he wouldn't let it suffer unnecessarily, I hope he would shoot it if there was absolutely no hope. I'm not keen to take it to the vet the be pts as that would be an incredibly stressful  20 minute car journey especially as its wounds are in areas which make lifting and restaining it impossible to do without further distress.  Poor thing. The second one is in better shape.

I dont know how to do the clever quote thing but:

" People forget dogs are animals not humans, and should be treated as such, a responsible dog owner is someone who keeps their dogs under control at all times, no exceptions! " 

Well said Dixie. .

.

 









Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: doganjo on May 15, 2012, 12:19:23 pm
On the subject of re-homing dogs. I don't think the re-homing agencies can place dogs with a record of aggression because they would be liable for supplying a dangerous dog.
There are specific charities which actually retrain, rehome or foster such dogs.  My friend is a behaviourist for SHAK, just such a  charity.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: robert waddell on May 15, 2012, 12:36:03 pm
yes there is a line of thought on battering them into good behaviour  and not just dogs my own experience was with cows  but all animals sense by your tone of voice when they are in the wrong    but as with everything else there is a line that you do not cross or it becomes abusive :farmer:
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: doganjo on May 15, 2012, 12:47:07 pm
I can't understand the need to hit any animal let alone a dog.  Gregg made such an impression on me that I was happy to let him have one of my pups 2 years ago. Ranger is now helping Gregg stabilise difficult dogs that come into the SHAK kennels.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: fleurky on May 15, 2012, 03:14:49 pm
You are both absolutely right,  being firm and assertive and using your voice and body language is much the best way to gain respect as pack leader.  My 3 border collies/ sprollies have never had a  hand lifted to them, they have learnt right and wrong via my (non abusive) reaction from puppies.  They are great dogs.

However, if you take on an old huge strong German Shepherd which hurls its self at sheep's throats you have to be prepared to use a different way to get its attention or you have a dead sheep on your hands. She dragged me on a halti and took two sheep down the first day I walked her.  After that, rather than give up - and because I am a stubborn old hag - she got a mighty whack with the end of a leadrope and a very stern 'no'.  When she didn't lunge, or even better, took no interest,  we simply carried on walking on a loose rope.  I did not reward her for not attacking sheep (I expect her to behave like that), but I was ready for her if she lunged.   After a week just the 'no' was enough.   It is the first time (and I hope the last) I have had to be so brutal, but she figured it out .  Now a year on, she will walk calmly off lead through fields of sheep, recalls brilliantly and is neither anxious or nervous.   Before that she wasn't taken out for a walk because of the sheep issue.

I have no doubt there are kinder ways to train.  Yes it's abusive, (battering into good behaviour is maybe a little harsh but you may be right!), but the GS was a sheep killer and now it isnt (on my watch).  I walk her twice a day, she loves coming out and sulks when I'm away.  She has a much better quality of life now.   
I totally empathise with your post Robert about cattle.  I have witnessed a farmer repeatedly punching a  cow on the nose when it wouldn't load into a trailer with its calf. That is simply losing control.  Sometimes training needs an effective detterent, though I totally appreciate some may be horrified by my method. Sorry!
Oh and little lamb is going down hill =(
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: SteveHants on May 15, 2012, 04:40:21 pm
I have had terriers more or less all my life. There is absolutley no way a 'proper' terrier (Patterdale, Fell, Border, the larger JRTs) should be let off anywhere near lambs because they will attack things like that, it is hardwired into their genes to kill things. The dog owner should unquestionably foot the bill in this case. However, were I the farmer I would probably have shot the lambs if I could see a short life full of suffering ahead of them.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: Moleskins on May 15, 2012, 04:46:04 pm
There must surely come a point where a dog should be destroyed.
It cannot be right to take a dog with history 'retrain' it and re home it with someone who no matter how experienced an owner they might be, has an animal which can turn nasty at any time.
This thread is on a sheep forum where previous threads have encouraged owners to take a piece of plastic pipe to an animal and hit its' legs or nose making sure that they hurt it. ( Dealing with unruly rams ).
Yet when it  comes to a dog which can do some serious damage to other animals or God forbid a child, suddenly we're expected to go all mushy and try to re home anything and everything be it vicious, sick, disabled etc.
I doubt anyone on here is cruel to their animals, most of us are realistic though .........
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: robert waddell on May 15, 2012, 05:16:42 pm
yes it is a sheep posting  but it is all relevant    terriers are killers  but anybody that has  one knows that and should keep them under control  bigger dogs it is the owners that are irresponsible and if they catch anything and kill it when they should not  they are not doing themselves or even the dog any favours by going into denial about there killer instinct    far to often today  society and all these involved with the court system and even training dogs think a stern talking to will alter either humans or animals  go into the public area of a court and sit and listen to the cases and observe the reaction to the charged person  when they get a slap on the wrist
some time i will inform all on hitting  cattle and no amount of sweet angelic talking would have altered that cows behaviour     and sows or boars fighting you have to get in there with violence either that or stand like a forking idiot and watch a death or at best have them injured that you have to put them down :farmer:
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: doganjo on May 15, 2012, 07:33:43 pm
There must surely come a point where a dog should be destroyed.
It cannot be right to take a dog with history 'retrain' it and re home it with someone who no matter how experienced an owner they might be, has an animal which can turn nasty at any time.
http://www.shak.org.uk/about.html (http://www.shak.org.uk/about.html)
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: Moleskins on May 15, 2012, 10:45:03 pm
The SHAK website says as follows -:
This means that as well as not taking dogs from the general public we NO LONGER re home SHAK dogs to the public.

So on the basis  that they don't take dogs from the public, what is to be done with a dog that is running riot amongst sheep, biting people or whatever ?

Quite clearly Doganjo you don't sit comfortably with the idea of any dog being PTS for any reason whether it be for health or bad behaviour.

Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: doganjo on May 16, 2012, 10:06:09 am
The SHAK website says as follows -:
This means that as well as not taking dogs from the general public we NO LONGER re home SHAK dogs to the public.

So on the basis  that they don't take dogs from the public, what is to be done with a dog that is running riot amongst sheep, biting people or whatever ?

Quite clearly Doganjo you don't sit comfortably with the idea of any dog being PTS for any reason whether it be for health or bad behaviour.
I didn't say that.  What I said was that there are organisations and experts out there who can and will retrain problem dogs.  There are occasions when this is not possible - Cocker Rage Syndrome is one example and we had to have an 18month old bitch destroyed for exactly that reason after seeking numerous methods of controlling her.  I write from vast experience not purely emotion.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: bigchicken on May 16, 2012, 10:40:30 am
I to have owned terriers for a good part of my life as well as labs & lurchers and never once have I had an instance of this kind. I would never let any dog of mine anywhere near lambs or give them the chance of doing so and that is with dogs that were well used to farm animals they were taught as a pup to show respect. Owners or handlers deserves to loose the dog and pay any compensation. I have known people with dogs that as a pup showed to much interest in sheep and they were pup into a pen with an old tup and soon learned the errors of there ways.     
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: in the hills on May 16, 2012, 11:12:43 am
How are the lambs?  A dog attack on sheep must be awful to witness. Poor things.  :'(

When I moved into my current house, I was told by my neighbour that a local farmer had come to his gate and told him that if his dog ever got onto his land it would be shot! This did worry me. My dog is the kind that never leaves my side and makes no attempt to wander but you never know. Had no idea how my dog behaved around sheep. Fine with hens, ducks, house rabbit, etc but a big bouncy, excitable retriever. Asked another farmer who trains collies to a high, competitive standard if he would try my dog near his sheep. He took us in with Alf on a long rope. Alf didnt even seem to see them and not in the least interested. Farmer took him off the rope and threw a stick into the flock (only thing Alf was interested in). Alf retrieved the stick and took no notice of the scattering flock. I was told not to worry and that local farmers collies that got out were the worst culprits for sheep worrying around here ..... they didnt always attack but pushed sheep into corners causing suffocation, etc.

Always keep my dog on a lead around other peoples stock and though he never even looks at them I always watch him when around my own ...... dogs are animals and you can never be certain what their reactions may be.
My neighbour says that even a dog like mine .... if he got out with another dog could change in his behaviour and begin to hunt as a member of a pack.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: dixie on May 16, 2012, 11:21:29 am
All dogs should be kept on a lead whilst walking through livestock, even if it's a public footpath, there is no 'right' to allow your dog off the lead, even though some people think there is. My dog was proof that she could spend years with our sheep and other animals without any interest until one day she changed her mind and almost killed them!
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: doganjo on May 16, 2012, 11:25:46 am
All dogs should be kept on a lead whilst walking through livestock, even if it's a public footpath, there is no 'right' to allow your dog off the lead, even though some people think there is. My dog was proof that she could spend years with our sheep and other animals without any interest until one day she changed her mind and almost killed them!
Totally agree. What I can't understand is how anybody thinks their dog is any different.  Any dog might suddenly go after any other animals - that is what they are, predatory animals.  They can be trained but sometimes something triggers different behaviour.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: dixie on May 16, 2012, 11:41:31 am
Exactly, but some just dont 'get it', I may have already said this earlier but my friend lost inlamb ewes early this year, woman walking three pit bull x and a terrier, she paid up, had 2 dogs pts and was horrified that her dogs were capable, they wanted to see the photos as they needed to see for themselves what the dogs were capable of! Humans are much more trouble than animals!
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: fleurky on May 16, 2012, 12:31:43 pm
Hmm, I fear I will be the devils advocate once again. I do not agree with the 'keep your dog on a lead at all times in fields of livestock' rule. 

If you actually have control of your dog - and I don't just mean it accompanies you on a walk -  there is no reason whatsoever that the dog needs to be on a lead at all, ever.  Problem is, few of us have that relationship and can  therefore trust our dogs that implicitly.

My dogs don't chase. They are simply not allow to.  Lambs, pheasants, squirrels, cats, day old chicks. Not allowed. End of. The day any of mine hurt another animal, I will offer myself to you to throw sharpened sticks at.
I will use my disctretion to put them on a lead.  If livestock seems very nervous, if other dog walkers put theirs on a lead, if a sign says 'keep your dog on a lead', if I need to rescue a stuck lamb I'll put them on leads in order to tie them up out of the way to simplify the job and prevent them helping (which is not always helpful at all!).

Otherwise I keep them at heel, trust them, and they respect me; the German Shepherd for different reasons than my 3.
Anyone however that does not have this kind of relationship, and especially (pet hate) anyone who cannot recall their dog must at all times keep it on a lead.  Its just common sense at the end of the day (maybe that is the problem!). Dogs are like people; some are good and some need a little help to be good - and breed has an awful lot to do with how difficult that road will be. We shouldn't however assume they are all flesh tearing maniacs fighting to control an impulse to shred other animals to pieces.

However I'd never have a terrier! Or pitt bulls!

Big lamb died yesterday evening, too many wounds, poor thing.  Did the best we could - thanks so much for all the advice. The dogs owners will pay for both lambs.  The second one very quiet.  Bloody irresponsible dog owners!



Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: Moleskins on May 16, 2012, 03:27:12 pm
All dogs should be kept on a lead whilst walking through livestock, even if it's a public footpath, there is no 'right' to allow your dog off the lead, even though some people think there is. My dog was proof that she could spend years with our sheep and other animals without any interest until one day she changed her mind and almost killed them!
Totally agree. What I can't understand is how anybody thinks their dog is any different.  Any dog might suddenly go after any other animals - that is what they are, predatory animals.  They can be trained but sometimes something triggers different behaviour.
The SHAK website says as follows -:
This means that as well as not taking dogs from the general public we NO LONGER re home SHAK dogs to the public.

So on the basis  that they don't take dogs from the public, what is to be done with a dog that is running riot amongst sheep, biting people or whatever ?

Quite clearly Doganjo you don't sit comfortably with the idea of any dog being PTS for any reason whether it be for health or bad behaviour.
I didn't say that.  What I said was that there are organisations and experts out there who can and will retrain problem dogs.  There are occasions when this is not possible - Cocker Rage Syndrome is one example and we had to have an 18month old bitch destroyed for exactly that reason after seeking numerous methods of controlling her.  I write from vast experience not purely emotion.

So if a dog is a predatory animal and something can trigger different behaviour how can it possibly make any sense to take a dog that has shown signs and give it to SHAK who have a 'strict no kill policy'. You've advocated SHAK in a previous post yet you put your own dog down. ( May I say quite rightly and that I know it would have been a hard decision, a friend of mine had the same with the same end result. )
This thread is about dogs attacking sheep, once a dog has shown the will to attack can it ever be fully trusted with stock, other dogs or people. There can only be one answer and in my book it's not to 'retrain' it or re home it with someone whose emotions are led by the desire to 'save' a dog.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: dixie on May 16, 2012, 04:08:50 pm
Walking a dog off the lead through someone else's livestock is disrespectful, in my opinion. Regardless of how much control the owner has. There's no such thing as 100% guarantee, and that chance should never be taken. Yes some owners and their dogs are far better trained and controlled than others but theres no guarantee.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: fleurky on May 16, 2012, 04:37:44 pm
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one Dixie.  Unless there is a sign asking me to keep my dogs on a lead I will continue to keep them loose but under close control - unless the situation warrants leads. I know that I am not being disrepectful, quite the opposite being a country gal through and through.  I do however admire your ethics and will even supply the sharpened sticks should my methods get me in hot water.

I believe a dog can be taught not to chase (although I don't claim all ought to be), you just have to find someone who knows how to do it, has the time to do it and the determination to see it through. And thats the problem, who has the time, the knowledge and a spare place in front of the fire ?

I've offered to have the terrier here and put it through serious boot camp.  I am confident it will learn that chasing is unwanted behaviour regardless of it being instinctive (not saying it should ever be let off a lead around sheep -  but it should be on a loose lead walking to the side of its handler and behaving respectably, not pulling on a lead whenever something darts out of a hedge). But really there is no point because the owners husband will never be assertive enough to be the boss.

 Problem is, its the relationship with the person who walks it that is every bit as important as the training - if not more important.  You can't train a dog to have self control, and not to do something it instinctivly wants to do - and then just hand it over as 'cured'.  Its a teamwork thing, the dog has to have total respect and confidence in the handler.  I havn't done any research into this SHAK thing (sorry!) but I'd say that is the reason they don't re-home.  Re-training the dog is one thing - training the human to grasp the concept and be the big cheese not just the hand that feeds is quite another.

It's quite simple, as has already been posted - if you can't keep your dog under close control at best or at worst recall your dog first time, keep it on a lead at all times.

This particular attack was 100% human error. The owners husband wandered off home without the dog when it dived after a rabbit, assuming it would come back.  He's my friend, but he's a bloody idiot - who won't do it again.  The dog found its own way into a sheep field and had no one to tell him it wasn't ok to go get the galloping woolly things.   None of us would think about wandering off home without the dog would we?!!  Still feel sick for those poor wretched lambs.  All the sheep in that field are still traumatised and bolt as soon as a dog is walked along the footpath. Horrors.

Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: dixie on May 16, 2012, 05:05:16 pm
Fleurie, can I please book in 2 German shepherds to your boot camp  ;D
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: in the hills on May 16, 2012, 05:31:46 pm
Mmmmm ..... my father trains gundogs and so I trained my dog with his. He will heel off lead and not ... go to play ... without being given the command. I agree with much of what you say but would still put him on a lead when walking through other peoples fields if there were stock around. I think if someone was walking through my fields I would feel more comfortable if their dog was on a lead, no matter how obedient they thought it was. Situations can occur where dogs behave in an unanticipated manner and peoples views of .... under control ... can be different. Some farmers are very wary of dogs being walked across their land and if my dog is at heel anyway I may as well slip his lead on and then the landowner can feel at ease.

My father would heel his dogs ... off leash ... through fields though.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: fleurky on May 16, 2012, 06:02:45 pm
Ha! Yes Dixie, but you have to come too! For good behaviour, the GS's will get kind words and ears tickled, and you will get wine! =)

Agree with you too In the hills, I suppose it comes from living in an area which is mostly pastural and hence grazed.  My dogs would be on a lead pretty much all of the time - and then a dog will rely on the lead, switch off, stop thinking and making its own decisions.  I don't want mine to do that.  I want mine to be alert and in tune with me at all times. That is what tires them.  If the field is large and the livestock is well out of the way and unbothered I will work the dogs. I am though very lucky to know the land owners and farmers and we have mutual respect.

I wouldn't think it ok to take my lot somewhere I or they didn't know and let them all loose.  Not that I would be concerned about  the livestock necessarily, because I (and they) are respectful of all of that - but more about other peoples opinion (walking 3 dogs (inc a  GS) off lead anywhere can get you many a cold stare) but more specifically due to approaching dogs.  When you walk with a few dogs (I often take 6), the dogs we meet are usually nervous about approaching a  pack and can become anxious and more often than not aggressive.  This is always because the dog in question has been put on a tight lead and has lost control of its own space and is unable to react in the way it needs to. Can't blame them for 'losing it' really, must be quite intimidating.

I think I am trying to say leads are useful but they are just a prop.  Training is the key.

Gosh, it sounds like I have a pathological dislike for leads.  I must ask my mother about that.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: in the hills on May 16, 2012, 06:57:08 pm
 ;D

Arrrr ...... if you know the land owners and they know you and your dogs it is a bit different. That is partly why I asked my neighbour to try my dog in with his sheep. After hearing from others about how farmers might react to incomers dogs I thought it important that they understand that I was concerned, responsible and that my dog was relatively obedient. Well sort of  ;D .... if you see him bounding around you wouldnt realise necessarily that he was fairly well trained and that is what worried me. Word spreads quickly around here and the farmer who said he would shoot my neighbours dog if it were on his land, never said anything to me.

So sorry about the lamb. Fingers crossed for the other poor soul.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: Brijjy on May 19, 2012, 11:09:10 pm
I had a lurcher who was a gem up until he turned 2 and a half. Then he turned into a wannabe sheep killer. He didn't actually kill one but the intent was there. He was always fab around people but he buggered off from me and wouldn't come back when called.
    I tracked him down and found him hanging off the back end of a large ewe belonging to my farmer neighbour. At this point the dog was totally unresponsive to voice, with his eyes rolled back in his head and I had to literally prize him off the ewe. Luckily for her, the dog had only grabbed alot of wool and no flesh. Dog got a severe bollocking for that and was walked on a lead from then on.
  He did the same thing again when my dad had him for me while I was at work. This time he trapped two of our ewes in the shed and had pinned one against the wall. My dad gave him a wallop to get him loose but it took him to actually physically pull the dog off.
   I then made the really hard decision to have him PTS. He was the type of dog that needed to run off the lead and where I am it is sheep in every field. I had tried to retrain him but nothing worked. When I took him to the vet they refused to PTS and said that they would send him to a rehoming kennel. I didn't think it was fair to put thios problem onto new owners and said I would take the dog away. Vets refused to comply and I was so upset, crying down the phone to them, that I agreed to let them have him. As far as I'm aware he has been rehomed in London! I know that he will escalate into chasing cats etc. Needless to say I won't use those vets again. It was an awful situation to be in. I still regret letting them take the dog away and when I contacted the rehoming kennels, they hadn't been told just how bad he was around livestock.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: Moleskins on May 19, 2012, 11:34:16 pm
Difficult one for you and I sympathise, blooming irresponsible of the vet and the re homing kennel IMHO.
Been talking to a girl today who is fostering a dog of about 18 weeks. With her because the owners kids were taken into care so they got a dog, which she now has 'til they re home it. When asked what breed she said it was assumed to be a cross of Husky and Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Of course it could be any Bull Terrier but it will go to someone, who won't have a clue what they're taking on. As I say irresponsible IMHO.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on May 20, 2012, 07:41:25 am
I have small farm with sheep and while I am happy with dogs under close control not on a lead in the normal parts, if walking through a field of sheep esp with lambs, then I think it is just a matter of courtesy for the dog to be put on a lead for that short period.
Some owners dont know their dogs as well as they think they did, some have no idea if their dog is good with stock or not or dont care. And a few (sadly it is a few) do have a well trained dog but from the farmers perspective I cant tell that, so the stress of holding my breath as they walk through is pretty great. And its avoidable, just by taking 2 seconds to pop the dog on a lead while passing through a sheep field.
So it isnt all about how good ones dog is or isnt, its also about being kind and thoughtful to ones sheep owning temporary hosts as one walks over their property and realising that stress is caused to them because they wont know the dog and its reliability.
It also is about the fact that if some walk without leads in sheep fields, others with less trained/reliable dogs take that as meaning it's an ok thing to do.
I see it as a courtesy that doesnt cost anything.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: robert waddell on May 20, 2012, 08:36:28 am
in total agreement with you lm  this whole dog /owner and letting them go where they want is totally out of hand
there is this mindset of idiots that think all the land should be open for them to do as they please and beyond reproach in doing so
all dogs have that killer instinct even well trained sheep dogs can turn     a total ban on dogs being in a field with livestock and better cooperation from the police when a dog runs amok in stock
not this stupid idea that towser is just wanting to play    well if towser is wanting to play let him lose in a primary school playground see how long towsers life is and the owners stay in that comunity :farmer:
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: Herdygirl on May 21, 2012, 09:42:18 pm
Well said Robert.

The landowner from whom i rent has said that any dog he sees off a lead in fields where my sheep and lambs are will be shot.
When are dog owners going to get it that footpaths through farm land are for pedestrians only (dictionary definition)  they are not a dogs playground or excercise area.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: SteveHants on May 21, 2012, 11:36:40 pm
I find it bordering on the offensive that anyone would conisider walking their dog off the lead through others livestock. If I see it happening, I will remonstrate with the owner, footpath or not. I don't think you can blame certain breeds of dog for attacking lambs or sheep. Dogs that kill  things have their uses, Terriers for ratting, Lurchers for taking rabbits (although Id sooner my lurcher were soft-mouthed if I had one) ergo, they should be on the leash until the owner knows an area is safe.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on May 22, 2012, 08:15:11 am
Thats very true about breed being no guide, four lambs were killed at a neighbours farm a few weeks back, dog seen in the act but the postlady who saw it couldnt catch it, it was a springer spaniel type and if she hadnt disturbed it, it would have carried on its way through the flock.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: sabrina on May 22, 2012, 10:57:05 am
Having had German Shepherds and still have a Jack Russel I have never had a problem with them chasing any of my animals but they are never allowed to be out without me. Would I trust them not to chase.Never. Instint is a very powerful thing in all dogs and it is people who make the mistake in believing that their dog is 100 safe and will do as they are told at all times. My neighbours had the in-laws staying. Their toy poodle got in with my mare and foals. I ended up with a foal trying to jump the fence, took the skin of his back legs. Owners could not believe that their sweet little dog had done such a thing. Now we have sheep fencing and electric fencing everywhere. If any dog owner came onto my land among our animals with their dog off the lead I would be at their throat. its plain arrogance and insulting.Also my Stallions do not like strange dogs and are very handy with their feet  ;D
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: Goldcraig on May 22, 2012, 10:58:48 am
I have a different issue....on 3 occasions now I have had to phone the farmer who owns the adjacent fields to inform him that his lambs and ewes were in my fields....they have wandered up to the house, chewed up some trees and generally made a mess...the kids love it , but on the three ocassions, my dogs haven't  been out, pure luck more than anything else. Although I'm "fairly" confident they would come back on recall, I cannot be sure....Fair play to the farmer, he fixed his fencing and it was more of an erosion issue that poor fencing....Good communications is the key for us...other annoying thing with this is that Riley loves ...and I mean loves, rolling in the sheep dung...lol
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: dixie on May 22, 2012, 11:49:50 am
Goldcraig, I may be wrong but I've always been led to believe that it's your responsibility to keep livestock out, rather than the farmer to keep it in? Common sense he should keep them in but it's what we were told years ago?
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: Goldcraig on May 22, 2012, 12:14:25 pm
That's interesting...never thought of it like that...again, fair play to the farmer who fixed the fencing if that is the case....so just for arguments sake....if it's my responsibility to keep my dogs off his land or if there is an issue, I can expect to pay costs associated with stock loss, what would happen if there was an incident on my land if his stock strays on to it...I agree that correct fencing and planned maintenance should ensure that doesnt happen....but what if????..interesting..
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: dixie on May 22, 2012, 12:22:22 pm
I'd say it's your responsibility to prevent your dogs from worrying his livestock? Not sure who told us but when we moved here there were cows in the field behind and we were told that although it was stock fenced all round, if the cows got into our garden it's our fault for not keeping them out, I may of course be totally wrong!! Any solicitors out their? :wave:
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on May 22, 2012, 01:43:54 pm
In England you have to fence your own stock in. In Scotland generally the cost is deemed to be 50:50. However if one side is a garden or somewhere with no stock ever and the other has the stock then morally they should pay the lions share. ie at least the cost of increasing a fence which marks a boundary (couple of lines of wire and some posts split 50:50 cost wise up to a proper stock proof standard.
Currently if your dog attacks your own stock on your own land, no offence is committed, although that might change with the changes in rules on dogs being considered.
If the animals arent yours, and shouldnt be there, having broken in then it is a moot point, I would certainly be strongly resisting any claim for compensation if for eg it was a garden they broke into, whereas if it were fields the dog was roaming then there might be more argument that the dog wasnt under control.
Title: Re: Another dog attack
Post by: robert waddell on May 22, 2012, 01:57:32 pm
if you have a field and somebody Else's stock stray onto it and subsequently are killed injured or totally disappear you are not responsible for them
some farmers would purposely graze there neighbours and some neighbours would deposit them miles from the owner
i had an instance with a silage field (wondered why there was tracks all over it)then one day saw the neighbours sheep in it as they had climbed a wall to get in the only way i could get them out was open the gate and put them in the road  i was never bothered with his stock again :D :farmer: