[fleurky]

You are both absolutely right,  being firm and assertive and using your voice and body language is much the best way to gain respect as pack leader.  My 3 border collies/ sprollies have never had a  hand lifted to them, they have learnt right and wrong via my (non abusive) reaction from puppies.  They are great dogs.

However, if you take on an old huge strong German Shepherd which hurls its self at sheep's throats you have to be prepared to use a different way to get its attention or you have a dead sheep on your hands. She dragged me on a halti and took two sheep down the first day I walked her.  After that, rather than give up - and because I am a stubborn old hag - she got a mighty whack with the end of a leadrope and a very stern 'no'.  When she didn't lunge, or even better, took no interest,  we simply carried on walking on a loose rope.  I did not reward her for not attacking sheep (I expect her to behave like that), but I was ready for her if she lunged.   After a week just the 'no' was enough.   It is the first time (and I hope the last) I have had to be so brutal, but she figured it out .  Now a year on, she will walk calmly off lead through fields of sheep, recalls brilliantly and is neither anxious or nervous.   Before that she wasn't taken out for a walk because of the sheep issue.

I have no doubt there are kinder ways to train.  Yes it's abusive, (battering into good behaviour is maybe a little harsh but you may be right!), but the GS was a sheep killer and now it isnt (on my watch).  I walk her twice a day, she loves coming out and sulks when I'm away.  She has a much better quality of life now.   
I totally empathise with your post Robert about cattle.  I have witnessed a farmer repeatedly punching a  cow on the nose when it wouldn't load into a trailer with its calf. That is simply losing control.  Sometimes training needs an effective detterent, though I totally appreciate some may be horrified by my method. Sorry!
Oh and little lamb is going down hill =(

[SteveHants]

I have had terriers more or less all my life. There is absolutley no way a 'proper' terrier (Patterdale, Fell, Border, the larger JRTs) should be let off anywhere near lambs because they will attack things like that, it is hardwired into their genes to kill things. The dog owner should unquestionably foot the bill in this case. However, were I the farmer I would probably have shot the lambs if I could see a short life full of suffering ahead of them.

[Moleskins]

There must surely come a point where a dog should be destroyed.
It cannot be right to take a dog with history 'retrain' it and re home it with someone who no matter how experienced an owner they might be, has an animal which can turn nasty at any time.
This thread is on a sheep forum where previous threads have encouraged owners to take a piece of plastic pipe to an animal and hit its' legs or nose making sure that they hurt it. ( Dealing with unruly rams ).
Yet when it  comes to a dog which can do some serious damage to other animals or God forbid a child, suddenly we're expected to go all mushy and try to re home anything and everything be it vicious, sick, disabled etc.
I doubt anyone on here is cruel to their animals, most of us are realistic though .........

[robert waddell]

yes it is a sheep posting  but it is all relevant    terriers are killers  but anybody that has  one knows that and should keep them under control  bigger dogs it is the owners that are irresponsible and if they catch anything and kill it when they should not  they are not doing themselves or even the dog any favours by going into denial about there killer instinct    far to often today  society and all these involved with the court system and even training dogs think a stern talking to will alter either humans or animals  go into the public area of a court and sit and listen to the cases and observe the reaction to the charged person  when they get a slap on the wrist
some time i will inform all on hitting  cattle and no amount of sweet angelic talking would have altered that cows behaviour     and sows or boars fighting you have to get in there with violence either that or stand like a forking idiot and watch a death or at best have them injured that you have to put them down

[doganjo]

There must surely come a point where a dog should be destroyed.
It cannot be right to take a dog with history 'retrain' it and re home it with someone who no matter how experienced an owner they might be, has an animal which can turn nasty at any time.

http://www.shak.org.uk/about.html

[Moleskins]

The SHAK website says as follows -:
This means that as well as not taking dogs from the general public we NO LONGER re home SHAK dogs to the public.

So on the basis  that they don't take dogs from the public, what is to be done with a dog that is running riot amongst sheep, biting people or whatever ?

Quite clearly Doganjo you don't sit comfortably with the idea of any dog being PTS for any reason whether it be for health or bad behaviour.

[doganjo]

The SHAK website says as follows -:
This means that as well as not taking dogs from the general public we NO LONGER re home SHAK dogs to the public.

So on the basis  that they don't take dogs from the public, what is to be done with a dog that is running riot amongst sheep, biting people or whatever ?

Quite clearly Doganjo you don't sit comfortably with the idea of any dog being PTS for any reason whether it be for health or bad behaviour.

I didn't say that.  What I said was that there are organisations and experts out there who can and will retrain problem dogs.  There are occasions when this is not possible - Cocker Rage Syndrome is one example and we had to have an 18month old bitch destroyed for exactly that reason after seeking numerous methods of controlling her.  I write from vast experience not purely emotion.

[bigchicken]

I to have owned terriers for a good part of my life as well as labs & lurchers and never once have I had an instance of this kind. I would never let any dog of mine anywhere near lambs or give them the chance of doing so and that is with dogs that were well used to farm animals they were taught as a pup to show respect. Owners or handlers deserves to loose the dog and pay any compensation. I have known people with dogs that as a pup showed to much interest in sheep and they were pup into a pen with an old tup and soon learned the errors of there ways.     

[in the hills]

How are the lambs?  A dog attack on sheep must be awful to witness. Poor things. 

When I moved into my current house, I was told by my neighbour that a local farmer had come to his gate and told him that if his dog ever got onto his land it would be shot! This did worry me. My dog is the kind that never leaves my side and makes no attempt to wander but you never know. Had no idea how my dog behaved around sheep. Fine with hens, ducks, house rabbit, etc but a big bouncy, excitable retriever. Asked another farmer who trains collies to a high, competitive standard if he would try my dog near his sheep. He took us in with Alf on a long rope. Alf didnt even seem to see them and not in the least interested. Farmer took him off the rope and threw a stick into the flock (only thing Alf was interested in). Alf retrieved the stick and took no notice of the scattering flock. I was told not to worry and that local farmers collies that got out were the worst culprits for sheep worrying around here ..... they didnt always attack but pushed sheep into corners causing suffocation, etc.

Always keep my dog on a lead around other peoples stock and though he never even looks at them I always watch him when around my own ...... dogs are animals and you can never be certain what their reactions may be.
My neighbour says that even a dog like mine .... if he got out with another dog could change in his behaviour and begin to hunt as a member of a pack.

[dixie]

All dogs should be kept on a lead whilst walking through livestock, even if it's a public footpath, there is no 'right' to allow your dog off the lead, even though some people think there is. My dog was proof that she could spend years with our sheep and other animals without any interest until one day she changed her mind and almost killed them!

[doganjo]

All dogs should be kept on a lead whilst walking through livestock, even if it's a public footpath, there is no 'right' to allow your dog off the lead, even though some people think there is. My dog was proof that she could spend years with our sheep and other animals without any interest until one day she changed her mind and almost killed them!

Totally agree. What I can't understand is how anybody thinks their dog is any different.  Any dog might suddenly go after any other animals - that is what they are, predatory animals.  They can be trained but sometimes something triggers different behaviour.

[dixie]

Exactly, but some just dont 'get it', I may have already said this earlier but my friend lost inlamb ewes early this year, woman walking three pit bull x and a terrier, she paid up, had 2 dogs pts and was horrified that her dogs were capable, they wanted to see the photos as they needed to see for themselves what the dogs were capable of! Humans are much more trouble than animals!

[fleurky]

Hmm, I fear I will be the devils advocate once again. I do not agree with the 'keep your dog on a lead at all times in fields of livestock' rule. 

If you actually have control of your dog - and I don't just mean it accompanies you on a walk -  there is no reason whatsoever that the dog needs to be on a lead at all, ever.  Problem is, few of us have that relationship and can  therefore trust our dogs that implicitly.

My dogs don't chase. They are simply not allow to.  Lambs, pheasants, squirrels, cats, day old chicks. Not allowed. End of. The day any of mine hurt another animal, I will offer myself to you to throw sharpened sticks at.
I will use my disctretion to put them on a lead.  If livestock seems very nervous, if other dog walkers put theirs on a lead, if a sign says 'keep your dog on a lead', if I need to rescue a stuck lamb I'll put them on leads in order to tie them up out of the way to simplify the job and prevent them helping (which is not always helpful at all!).

Otherwise I keep them at heel, trust them, and they respect me; the German Shepherd for different reasons than my 3.
Anyone however that does not have this kind of relationship, and especially (pet hate) anyone who cannot recall their dog must at all times keep it on a lead.  Its just common sense at the end of the day (maybe that is the problem!). Dogs are like people; some are good and some need a little help to be good - and breed has an awful lot to do with how difficult that road will be. We shouldn't however assume they are all flesh tearing maniacs fighting to control an impulse to shred other animals to pieces.

However I'd never have a terrier! Or pitt bulls!

Big lamb died yesterday evening, too many wounds, poor thing.  Did the best we could - thanks so much for all the advice. The dogs owners will pay for both lambs.  The second one very quiet.  Bloody irresponsible dog owners!

[Moleskins]

All dogs should be kept on a lead whilst walking through livestock, even if it's a public footpath, there is no 'right' to allow your dog off the lead, even though some people think there is. My dog was proof that she could spend years with our sheep and other animals without any interest until one day she changed her mind and almost killed them!

Totally agree. What I can't understand is how anybody thinks their dog is any different.  Any dog might suddenly go after any other animals - that is what they are, predatory animals.  They can be trained but sometimes something triggers different behaviour.

The SHAK website says as follows -:
This means that as well as not taking dogs from the general public we NO LONGER re home SHAK dogs to the public.

So on the basis  that they don't take dogs from the public, what is to be done with a dog that is running riot amongst sheep, biting people or whatever ?

Quite clearly Doganjo you don't sit comfortably with the idea of any dog being PTS for any reason whether it be for health or bad behaviour.

I didn't say that.  What I said was that there are organisations and experts out there who can and will retrain problem dogs.  There are occasions when this is not possible - Cocker Rage Syndrome is one example and we had to have an 18month old bitch destroyed for exactly that reason after seeking numerous methods of controlling her.  I write from vast experience not purely emotion.

So if a dog is a predatory animal and something can trigger different behaviour how can it possibly make any sense to take a dog that has shown signs and give it to SHAK who have a 'strict no kill policy'. You've advocated SHAK in a previous post yet you put your own dog down. ( May I say quite rightly and that I know it would have been a hard decision, a friend of mine had the same with the same end result. )
This thread is about dogs attacking sheep, once a dog has shown the will to attack can it ever be fully trusted with stock, other dogs or people. There can only be one answer and in my book it's not to 'retrain' it or re home it with someone whose emotions are led by the desire to 'save' a dog.

[dixie]

Walking a dog off the lead through someone else's livestock is disrespectful, in my opinion. Regardless of how much control the owner has. There's no such thing as 100% guarantee, and that chance should never be taken. Yes some owners and their dogs are far better trained and controlled than others but theres no guarantee.