[amscott]

Hello Accidental Smallholders! This is my first post. I'm just looking to have a general conversation about our Sow. We were offered her cheap with the 4 OSB weaners we bought. She was getting bullied by the other sows and was very thin. She was in pig when we got her (cost £100, OSB but not birth registered) and recently gave birth to just 4 piglets. This was our first farrowing and to be extra sure we did call the vet in to double check that there were no piglets still in there. I am assuming that because she was in bad condition, she had only very few piglets?
Also, how long do sows live, and what do you do with them when they are too old? She was born in 2007 and this was her 10th litter (her records show she has always had 10+ piglets). Any info, views welcome

[Fowgill Farm]

I think you're probably spot on with your assumption that she was in such bad condition thats the reason behind her small litter, also if she was being bulied sows under stress sometimes reabsorb some of their litter during early pregnancy.
I would suggest you keep her well fed; while she has piglets you'll be giving her extra food anyway but she needs that to feed her young so don't skimp on it, and when weaned from her litter give her a cycle or two off to rebuild her condition and i would keep her on 6lb(2.7kg) food per day plus supplements of fruit & veg if you can after weaning. At 5yrs old she still has a good few litters in her if you can keep her in good condition, her litters will naturally become smaller but in the current climate this can be a blessing. Then get her back to the boar and take it from there.
HTH
Mandy 

[oaklandspigs]

As you suspect one of the most likely casues of a small litter is poor condition.  Alongside this, if she was bullied early in pregnancy, the eggs can fail to implant on the wall of the uterus.

Obviously you will never know, but given her history of larger litters,  I would work on getting good condition back before next mating.

Pigs can live for quite a few years.  As to when you stop breeding from her, this is a subjective decision, which you would base on things like how able she is to take a mating (eg condition of back legs); how well she is coping with litters; size of litters; number of litters she has had (less intensively bred pigs can give good litter sizes longer); how well she is able to feed them (teat condition, mastitis, ability for her to create milk); what your aims are (pig to make profit, break even, just be a pet) and probably many more. 

When ours have stopped being used for breeding, we send them for cull, via our local market.  Of course you can keep them just as pets, or indeed sausage the whole pig (but that's a lot of sausages).  Opinion on joints and other cuts from sows does vary (and not many people do this), but generally you would expect them be to tough.

(was typing at the same time as Mandy - hense repetition!)

[robert waddell]

probably you paid to much for her in her condition     what everybody else does is irrelevant it is your sow your circumstances your money         sows can and do live for many years being productive is another matter   with this being her first small litter  the piglets will not draw her down and once back to the boar she may go back to large litters   it is when she persistently has small litters or is difficult to get in pig that her days are numbered
cast sow prices will increase this year or should given that there is about 20% less sows going about  nothing wrong with eating her yourself but do not sell at a market you are only making money for somebody the other option is to sell her to cheale meats you could then get what you paid for her
for a non registered pig she has been very productive and quite frankly should never have been breed from and is no great loss unless to you(we breed pedigree)
if you enjoyed the keeping her and farrowing get a pedigree in pig gilt and have her for many years

[SallyintNorth]

Welcome amscott  , fellow OSB sow owner! 

I just wanted to say that there are plenty of folks on here who think that only pedigree pigs should be bred from. 

Personally I have no issue with a non-registered or even crossbred sow being used to produce meat pigs.  And I have no issue with the meat pigs being crossbred either.

Declaring my interest - I have a pure-bred but unregistered OSB sow who has just reared a litter of stunning meat pigs, being crossed to a pedigree Saddleback (by AI.)  The pigs were such fun, grew so well, and turned out so excellent in terms of fat cover, marbling, flavour and tenderness, that I am hoping to repeat the mating.

But then, I am a farmer, and my views on where rare breeds sit in the scheme of things are somewhat contentious!   

Enjoy your pigs, do what is right for you and for that sow with her.    And don't be bullied by anyone on here - including me!   

[robert waddell]

if the sow is not birth registered how has she got a breeding record and what credence can there be from this breeding record
if every pig breeder was to cross and recross with whatever is available there will be no gene pool left to extract from if there is a major disaster in the farming world  surely even you sally can see that  even you are using pedigree seamen

[Fowgill Farm]

Amscott, many of us do keep pedigree pigs (and some more than others are biased that way) but there is nothing wrong as Sally says in having an unregistered sow providied you don't sell their offspring as pedigree. Out of interest were the breeding records you have kept by the previous owner?
As Sally also says enjoy your girl and get her fit for purpose again. Having only four piglets this time means they shouldn't take so much out of her and you can get her back to fitness in a relatively short time. She will give you many years of enjoyment, pigs are very lovable and you sound like you really care for her (getting the vet in to check above & beyond many wouldn't well done you) so make the most of her experience and you can learn together.
HTH
Mandy 

[amscott]

Thank you so much for the replies, I really do appreciate them, and all the advice.
Sorry , I wrote she was not registered, I meant birth notified- she is actually pedigree stock and has all her records but she was not notified with the breed book, or rather vice versa, I'm confusing myself here, help?

 As she is our first sow, it's all a learning curve, and very enjoyable so far (I never thought I'd feel so at home with my arm up a sow's uterus!). The vet remarked that the old girl is in really good condition now, and we are very happy with her bracken destroying and ploughing skills if nothing else.
It has been slowly dawning on us that we are very unlikely to make any money from our pigs, however I am keen to get a gilt in the future, probably OSB pedigree, even though I had a chat with the OSB man from Arran, near us in Argyll, who just had to shoot 6 of his sows as there is no market at all for the pork here in the West Coast.
With Ramona, arhem, sorry I mean the old sow, I would like to try AI after she has had a few free cycles,but I have been told that it is very tricky to get right (I'm a trained nurse, would this make a difference?). We will breed from her as the meat is mostly for ourselves, and friends, and although I can see the argument for keeping pedigree stock, and I like the OSB's, our last weaners were tamworth crossed with Gl Old Spot and the meat was divine.
BTW how much would have a registered pedigree in pig sow cost? We are already £'s down but the learning experience is invaluable

[oaklandspigs]

I too see nothing wrong in breeding from unregistered stock, and crossbreeding providing that you are not mis-selling.  This still creates demand for purebred registered stock, adn crossbreeders freqently move into a particular breed and go registered as they progress. 

[princesspiggy]

It has been slowly dawning on us that we are very unlikely to make any money from our pigs,

just pretend...lol

With Ramona, arhem, sorry I mean the old sow, I would like to try AI after she has had a few free cycles,but I have been told that it is very tricky to get right (I'm a trained nurse, would this make a difference?). We will breed from her as the meat is mostly for ourselves, and friends, and although I can see the argument for

its not that difficult at all. u just need to spend time everyday noting ur sows seasons. its timing that is crucial but we managed on our 2nd ever attempt. Dorothy has had 2 litters from 3 AI's.
 

[Fowgill Farm]

Thank you so much for the replies, I really do appreciate them, and all the advice.
Sorry , I wrote she was not registered, I meant birth notified- she is actually pedigree stock and has all her records but she was not notified with the breed book, or rather vice versa, I'm confusing myself here, help?

 With Ramona, arhem, sorry I mean the old sow,

Ramona is a great name and no shame in her having a name! I have Twinkle & Clover!

If she has all her records it probably means she is registered (birth notes precede registering they are like a pigs birth certificate and registration is like getting a passport ) on her breeding record does she have a posh pedigree name and does it give her parentage if it does the she's pedigree and you may be able to look her up on the BPA website tick both the dead & alive boxes as they kill off pigs even though they are alive. Google british pig association, click on pedigree pigs and then choose online herdbook.
Sounds like she's been well looked after and has found a good home, can't help on the AI thing as its never worked for my pigs but Sally has used it with success so no doubtshe'll be along to explain all the gory details.
HTH
Mandy 
ps forgot to say none of us makes money form our pigs we just don't tell our husbands 

[robert waddell]

a lot of people buy birth notified pigs   it is explained to them they are for meat only not breeding  breeding is a different price and not all piglets make the grade
registered is just that fancy name all the parentage and dates etc     if you buy a registered pig you must join the bpa to get that pigs details transferred to you either that or it becomes a pig  a lot of people make this mistake
the guy that shot the sows that was a dead loss to him and could have been worth the trip to the mainland for the cast sow trade
nothing wrong with Ramona it is better than some old sows get called

[SallyintNorth]

Hi again amscott    My girl is (Long) Meg, "MeeeeEEEEGGGGG-PiiiiiiiiigggGGGGG" when she's the other end of the paddock.  She comes a-running, ears flapping, looooong body see-sawing - we get visitors come just to see Meggy run to them for a banana!   

BH loves my pigs and is very happy that we have a huge amount of enjoyment out of them and eat fabulous pork that costs less overall than it would if we bought it from the butcher.  Since we enjoy every second we spend with them, we do not include anything for our time in the costings!!  Rather, the enjoyment we and our visitors get from them is yet another intangible asset! 

can't help on the AI thing as its never worked for my pigs but Sally has used it with success so no doubt she'll be along to explain all the gory details.

I did get her to hold to AI, second time of trying, yes.  We only got 5 piglets as we only managed to get it to work properly the once and it's best to do it three times over 36 hours.

I tried again for another litter after Christmas but failed miserably.  I blame BH's technique - he gets me to do the business end so he has to do the 'stimulation' bit and frankly, he's a bit Bruce about it.      (By which I mean to allude to a stereotypical Ozzie bloke's foreplay, "Sheila?  You awake?" rather than in any way impune Karen's OH!!! )

I haven't tried again yet as I had a reason for not wanting a litter now until July.  So I am hoping to catch her and have another go in a couple of weeks time, lambing and calving allowing... maybe it's more realistic to aim for five weeks hence...   And maybe I'd be best to book the cattle AI guy to do the business end and I'll do the soft lights and music... 

Deerpark do pedigree rare breed (and not so rare breed too) fresh semen:
http://www.deerpark-pigs.com/ but it's best to ring them to ask about available breeds, or indeed anything else - they're very friendly and helpful.  Remember though that the semen is fresh - and if you don't want to use it for a few days it needs to be stored somewhere not too hot but not in the fridge (which is the main reason my first attempt didn't work  )

Deerpark's instructions are very helpful, as is this website:
http://pigsinfrance.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=75

its not that difficult at all. u just need to spend time everyday noting ur sows seasons. its timing that is crucial but we managed on our 2nd ever attempt. Dorothy has had 2 litters from 3 AI's.

princesspiggy - you've been more successful than me; do you have any tips to share?

[princesspiggy]

its not that difficult at all. u just need to spend time everyday noting ur sows seasons. its timing that is crucial but we managed on our 2nd ever attempt. Dorothy has had 2 litters from 3 AI's.

princesspiggy - you've been more successful than me; do you have any tips to share?

dorothy has caught 2 out of 3 attempts.but then wev had 2 fails from pepper, one fail from belle, and one fail from delilah (who wasnt that well). but i was a complete beginner at it so it is possible but can be quite costly when u add it up. iv found the GOS much harder to identify there seasons than the tamworths. and thats where u can trip up. u really have to check twice daily and record it for a few months so u can predict the next seasons. unfortunately ours seem to be ready at weekends, xmas day, newyears day, and any bank holidays possible which resulted in us ordering a bit too late or a bit too early.
i didnt think dorothy had caught so we bought a boar - but she did - even though alot ended up on the floor, but is it not 4 billion sperm per bottle - or something like that. all my girls have stood with a bucket of feed so that part hasnt been difficult. just accurate timings is the crucial thing. but then dorothys seasons were a bit slow in autumn so might have fallen quicker with  resident boar. ?
really pleased with the deerparks tamworth cos the piglets are little crackers, tho quite darker in colouring.
we'l try and breed pedigree with pepper(gos) after she has her first litter of tam-spots.

[SallyintNorth]

Yes, I am delighted with Deerpark's Saddleback boar.  Strong healthy growy lovely-natured pigs who have been an absolute delight to know.  And eat.  Even my butcher approves, and he's a tough audience.

Do you get a real 'stand', pp?  And then do the services 12, 24 and 36 hours after she first stands?  I know when
Meg's in season, but I can't identify that 'moment', because broadly, she'll stand for a bit of fuss pretty much any time!  Hence I worry about trying too soon, don't persevere in case I'm too early, then end up being too late and missing it   

I am pretty comfortable and confident with the mechanics of doing the AI, but as pp says, the timing is crucial and I'm not good enough at it yet.

Maybe I am trying too hard to get the timing spot on, and letting her munch a bucket of sow rolls would be better than BH footling on...  food for thought.

Thanks for the details, pp - as you say, at £25-ish per time, it can get expensive if we have one or more failures for every success.  In my case, we couldn't really manage our own boar, I struggle to have enough separate pig-friendly areas as it is.  Going to or hiring / borrowing a boar is less appealing because of trying to work the rest of the farm around the standstill, but it's something I may have to consider if I don't get it right next time.