[robert waddell]

Linda posts on here
straw built shelters will be alright in north Devon just have the back to the prevailing wind and don't place in a low part  everybody ideas is different try something cheap and cheerful first then if pigs are for you outside then buy the Hilton for them

[princesspiggy]

carberry arks are easy to move as they are plastic,  but not cheap

[smudger]

Yes, I was looking at these - I was thinking can use in summer for pigs then for sheep / lambs in winter....

[HappyHippy]

Hiya  just coming in to add my tuppenceworth too 

If you want to buy a pig arc and have the spare cash, by all means get one - it'll be a sound invertment and last for years to come, But, you don't need one ! Pigs will get by spring to autumn in very basic housing (I once bought weaners from a lady who made an arc from palletts with a few feed bags over the top to keep the rain off - basic and not the prettiest thing to look at, but it did the job without costing the earth)
It might be prudent to wait til you're certain pigs are going to be a permanent addition before committing to the cost of the arc ? Plastic is said to have better insulation properties than the metal, but ours are metal and the pigs are fine in them.

Pig's who graze......
I keep Kune Kunes and it's true that they graze and don't root (as badly) as other breeds. Those not kept for breeding can maintain themselves on grass and a bit of fruit and veg through the summer, but they still need feeding in the months when there's not much grass. If they are for breeding or if they're under a year old they should be fed at least 1lb of hard feed daily (they need the vitamins, minerals and protien for good bones and long term health) So they don't survuve on grass alone I'm afraid 
Large Blacks are another breed I keep and I definately wouldn't use the term 'grazer' more 'browser/forrager' they do eat grass, and roots, and big lumps of earth as they dig it up but I wouldn't say it's 50% of their diet, more like 20% - ours still get 5lbs of food a day, even when the grass is in good supply - they're not over fat pigs either  . I think on half rations of pig food you'd have very hungry pigs who would be either very vocal or escaping looking for food and longer term you'd find they took longer to finish or had problems when it came to breeding.
Don't keep Saddlebacks, so can't comment on them really - but I suspect they're the same as the Large Black.

Try and read as much as you can and visit forums for advice - it's good to get as many viewpoints as possible and use the experiences of folk who are keeping them already. Everybody has their own way of doing things (as it should be, cos we've all got our favourite breeds and different set-ups to consider) pick and mix to find what works best for you, but just don't scrimp on the feeding 
HTH
Karen 

[Fowgill Farm]

Robert - "Choosing and keeping pigs" by Linda McDonald-Brown. (p127. GOS)  Also says the Large Black can get 50% of its food intake from grass and says that the B/saddleback is a grazer.

Ah well heres me going in the baby corner, don't know how to put this but if you're using the above book as your bible well err take it with a pinch of salt! Get a good one starting with pigs by andy case or carol harris keeping traditional pigs. go for it with a couple of wenaers to fatten and see how you go its all about what learning what works for you.
Mandy 

[smudger]

...just as well I posted....(re mythical grazing pigs).

But still wouldn't / don't support rearing of pigs with no external /paddock access.  I'll leave it another month till spring is definitely here and get something sorted out using what we've got.  Thx.

[SallyintNorth]

I don't know what numbers you're looking at, smudger, but for a small number, would it work to run them out in the morning and back into the yards and sties at night?  Once they know the food will be at the other end, you don't need any fencing, gates, or anything, they'll all happily run along to the other trough.  They'd need some rain shelter in the orchard, but that doesn't need to be nearly as robust as a permanent shelter.

smudger, I thought, as you do, that a happy pig was necessarily an outdoor pig.  And then I went through a winter with my own homebred OSB x Saddleback youngsters, and saw them shivering as they plodged about in cold wet mud.  The adult OSB sow was in better shape, being bigger and older, but I felt sorry for her some of the time, and made sure she had plenty of straw to make herself a big thick doormat for drying herself off as she came in from the cold and wet, and fed her at the edge of her doormat when the conditions were particularly foul.  The youngsters ended up housed for a significant portion of the cold, wet winter, only being put out for the day when the ground was drier and/or it was warm even if still wet.  I took them for a walk a few times, which they clearly enjoyed, but I have to say they never showed any distresss at being housed and delighted in seeing people for fuss and the occasional treat, as their pen was at the entrance to our cattle shed, so a fairly high traffic area.

I won't have that pen available in future years, plus I really do prefer them to be happy outdoors as they grow, so in my case, I am now thinking that I will try to work on one litter a year, to be away before the worst of the winter if possible, but at least to be big enough by the time that comes to withstand the wet and cold (as long as they have sufficient straw and a weatherproof shelter.)

you can call pork organic if it was kept in a coalhouse and fed organic food!

Sorry to correct you Mandy, but that isn't correct.  All organic livestock has to be free-range as well as being fed organic food and kept on organic land.  Organic producers are allowed to finish pigs in strawed yards but the majority of their lives are outdoors.  I think most certification bodies will give dispensations for housing pigs when their ground is miserably wet and cold (see above!) - but I think you bring yours under cover and onto hardstanding for the winter, too, don't you?

[princesspiggy]

smudger, I thought, as you do, that a happy pig was necessarily an outdoor pig.  And then I went through a winter with my own homebred OSB x Saddleback youngsters, and saw them shivering as they plodged about in cold wet mud.

i agree, living out all year round has its negetives aswell as positives for the animals. all our animals are native, and all live out, but sometimes they would love to come in out of mud/gales/rain etc youngsters find it harder too.
 

[MAK]

Smudger - I too attended a "Pig keeping course" and was very disappointed to see "rare breed - free range" pigs overcrowded and kept in an arc that floated on mud. The handfull of pellets given to them sunk in the mud and the pigs had to sift the slurry / mud to get some food. What constitutes "free range" was a real disappointment and like you I want to work with what I have to give my pigs a good life and to do it economically that yields good meat.

We are lucky as the old barn has a piggery built in. Inside they have stone flag floor and liquid waste flows down a  slope to an exit drain. They have a sleeping area, feeding area and toilet area that is part partitioned by a wooden "fence". The ceiling is low with compacted soil above it for insulation.
I generally leave their door open and when wet chuck straw just outside their door. We don't have the wood and land that Eve and others describe but they do have a fair sized field.
As Robert says they trash the soil and enjoy digging up large stones near the barn. We seem to have a clay pit area but most of the field is free draining good soil.
Most old "frermettes" in this area have a similar buildings but the young farmers focus on cattle with the old not able to keep the full range of animals they used to. They visit our pigs with veg and fruit ( even this week they bring stuff from their cellars).
I think we are very lucky  and know I would not keep 11 pigs in a mud bath the size of my downstairs room.

good luck.  Martin ( Limousin,France)

[Fowgill Farm]

you can call pork organic if it was kept in a coalhouse and fed organic food!

Sorry to correct you Mandy, but that isn't correct.  All organic livestock has to be free-range as well as being fed organic food and kept on organic land.  Organic producers are allowed to finish pigs in strawed yards but the majority of their lives are outdoors.  I think most certification bodies will give dispensations for housing pigs when their ground is miserably wet and cold (see above!) - but I think you bring yours under cover and onto hardstanding for the winter, too, don't you?

But they do the coalhouse thing.......believe me!
And yes i do bring mine in over winter, they have big yards to maraud in and cosy stables/byres and they get let out in turn every other day for a plod round the garden/orchard/rummage in compost heap, a slurp of all the bottles in the bottle bank! or to thieve from the sack of potatoes kept in the garage and have even been known to have a rake in the kitchen bin!! (no more leaving back door open!)
You have to judge whats best for you and your pigs, i have seen pigs kept in squalid conditions and their owners think its ok becoz " pigs like muck don't they?" eh no not 5ft deep poo so their heads are banging on the ceiling or their coats are so matted you have to cut the poo out with scissors or their foods so deep in the mud they can't eat it or their waters so rank they can't drink!
So winterwise (lucky its been so mild but boy has it been wet) don't feel guilty about bringing them in, pigs are very like humans a dry place to sleep, free from draughts, food & drink and a corner away from their house to do their business. In my opinion 'dirty' pigs equals lazy stupid ignorant owners.
Mandy 

[robert waddell]

when we built our shed it was designed for the french system an area of outside field that if the pigs wanted they could go to  free access with concrete area and inside sleeping area the only downside is it needs a false ceiling inside to retain heat in winter
the majority of farms in Britain used to have the varied livestock enterprises but this changed in the late 50 early sixty's to mono systems that are in place now it is easier to feed and maintain 100 cattle in a modern environment than lookafter 10 in the old systems and give free time
free range up to there guts in glabber is all down to the individual stock keeper and there situation
pigs do trash the ground even in free draining areas and it does take skillfull management to bring that area back from pigs to production even providing grass year on year to these mythical pigs that survive on grass

[robert waddell]

you really are trying to get me kicked of this forum           i fully support Mandy in what she says and do know if it happening   but that is up to those concerned and there conscience
and for the record i am not a believer in the organic thing and was around when FASL was launched to pay at that time £100 a year to get the FASL certificate and when cattle came into the ring it did not put one penny on the price and were always the poorest examples for sale
i did it my way and always topped the market when selling

[OhLaLa]

Mine have a dedicated outside area which is grassed (well, it is when they arrive, not a blade to be seen when they go). When the pigs go nothing else goes in there, it's cleaned out and the grass is regrown. The grass is rested for about a year. I'm lucky in that I have enough land to be able to do this.

Our 'arks' are homemade and no matter how strong they still chew them, rub them and destroy them, so they are burnt (might learn from the three little pig story and make the next one from block). The pigs enoy sleeping in them and it gives them a place to get out of the wind/sun/rain.

Can't stress enough how important it is to have good strong posts and barriers around the perimiter.

Besides pignuts, mine also get hay bales to play with (without the baler twine), and a ball which has pignuts placed in it. Plus green stuff from the veg garden.

We do have the old 'piggery' adjacent to one of the farm buildings, but we don't use it as unfortunately it is not next to a field and although I know of those that do it, I don't like the idea of a pig which is kept inside and never feels the sun on it's back..

 

[Fowgill Farm]

We do have the old 'piggery' adjacent to one of the farm buildings, but we don't use it as unfortunately it is not next to a field and although I know of those that do it, I don't like the idea of a pig which is kept inside and never feels the sun on it's back..

 

Agree one hundred per cent oolala but sometims in winter needs must especially on our heavy clay, it also gives my paddocks chance to rest.
Mandy 
Ps forgot to say i don't belive in organic either its just a rip off! So long as you know what you've fed your pigs and how they've been kept that good enuff in my view.

[OhLaLa]

If only our 'old 'piggery' was next to a field, such a waste, but heyho.

Ours don't overwinter, they go early Winter after the apple crop is in and they've had a good few weeks chomping on those, but understand totally those that have to live in for a while, as we are on clay too. It's the poor things that are locked up 100% of the time in small spaces, without even a decent window for natural light that I don't agree with.

Mine (2) have about a 1/4 of an acre, but they are only on it for fattening and then it is rested, so it doesn't get overworked. When the new pigs arrive it's like a jungle out there as I let it grow wild (they love rummaging through it).