[smudger]

Firstly, apologies if this has been discussed before.

I have visited a number of farms/smallholders for training courses in the last year and most are raising pigs indoors in pens, not free ranging. Those which did have some outdoor pigs were in fixed pens. This included people promoting rare breed pigs.  I didn't see any neglect  but one smallholder did seem to be mean on bedding and to my mind too many pigs in each pen  (I appreciate legal standards will have been met, but still...).

Now when I buy meat I always but free range. Sometimes organic, but ALWAYS free range.  I am trying to square the circle on being a smallholder, wanting better quality "product"  (particularly if it supports traditional and rare breeds) but can't really comprehend why if you follow this path you also wouldn't want the pig (or any animal) to follow as natural an existence as possible for its short life.

So is there anyone rearing pigs (either as a couple of weaners or commercially) who are managing to keep outdoor pigs without ruining the land (and if so how)? SFP and poaching being the reason why most were keeping indoors.

Or am I being too soppy? Admittedly the pigs seem to be mostly sleeping, so does it affect there well being?

I had this dream of pigs grazing under our orchards.....

[Eve]

Ours are grazing under the orchard - or rather, rooting up the soil around that massive old oak and lazing around in the shade afterwards
We let them have the run around of a field and some woodland as the field is very large, much more than they could ever root up in the time they're here (we fatten weaners). We move the electric fencing around every few weeks or so, giving them a bigger area as they grow, and they love digging their heads into newly discovered ants' nest, tails wagging.  They clear the weeds like no machine could, and at least afterwards the grass seed that comes in from near their pen has a chance to grow. Stinging nettles, thistles... they don't stand a chance against pigs 
And the woodland... well, there's no grass to destroy there anyway and they don't really damage the trees, it's all mud and they love it!
They love running around and exploring, it's what pigs do. But yes, they'll also spend quite some time inbetween being asleep 

[YorkshireLass]

It's an interesting one.
I don't know about pigs, but I spoke with a very opinionated farm manager when that super-dairy was in the news. His thoughts were, essentially, that a cow wants food, water, shelter and a "herd structure" - and if all this is provided then why would they choose to get cold and wet? Apparently there have been behavioural studies etc (leading to such things as the motorised back scratcher  ). But then, we were chatting about very modified, intensive dairy breeds - i.e. the delicate flowers of the farm world 

I think there can be good indoor systems as much as there can be bad outdoor systems - bad husbandry is bad husbandry. Does that make sense?

Doesn't answer your question really though 

[Sylvia]

I would far rather my pigs were living a good "piggy" life, bumbling around, rooting, wallowing etc. If the weather gets cold and wet they go into their arks and sometimes stay there for hours but I prefer them to have a choice in the matter

[Rosemary]

It's an interesting one.

I think there can be good indoor systems as much as there can be bad outdoor systems - bad husbandry is bad husbandry. Does that make sense?

I agree with YL on this. I'm not sure that living belly deep in mud is pleasant or healthy for the pig or the keeper, although the initial post is about pig welfare rather than keeper welfare so I think there are probably good and bad examples of both.

When I was at University in the early 80s, the farms on the Bush Estate were developing high welfare ways of keeping pigs, based of the study of the behaviour of ourdoor pigs, that could operate successfully commercially. This included loose housing sows, later weaning of piglets, letting gilts being retained for breeding form family groups with their mothers.

I think it must be pretty hard to balance the highest welfare with making a living, and let's face it, if folk can't make a living, the prospect for pigs generally is poor.

On the dairy cows, I was on a few dairy farms in my year with RHET. Many of the high yielding cows were in 24/7 because concentrate feed was the only way to get enough nutrients into them to stop them miling themselves to death. But this is the way they have been bred and tbh, I didn't think they looked terribly stressed but again, I suspect there is good and bad husbandry in all management systems.

Our weaners have always been kept outside - but we only have two or three, and only for 6 months of the year in summer. If we had them over winter, I think I'd be looking at some form of housing.

[robert waddell]

varied comments       not all land is suited to outdoor pig rearing   where you see commercial outdoor units  it is on free draining soil      any breed of pig will trash the soil structure on heavy land that is clay based      the only difference then is the length of there legs
if they are advertising there pigs as outdoor while being inside then that is trading standards
where we are they have to come in in winter 2 in a large area will not do much damage 20 will trash the same area and look as if they are neglected and uncared for
i am at a loss to see where this grazing pig comes from   they are not designed to live on grass as cows and sheep    pigs root that is what they have there snouts for
sfp has nothing to do with pigs some arable farmers let pigs on there land to fertilize it
pigs will eat the bark of trees just as horses do

[YorkshireLass]

Ooo I feel all brainy, I was just coming back to say it depends on your land and that outdoors on clay was probably a bad idea... 

[oaklandspigs]

Firstly, apologies if this has been discussed before.

Now when I buy meat I always but free range. Sometimes organic, but ALWAYS free range.

The pigs you are buying pork from Sainsbury's will be penned in some form.  "Free range" has no legal definition for pork, and very few pigs would meet your definition of free ranging. Indeed with the exception of some common grazing such as the New Forest, the vast majority of common grazing has no pigs.

However you can quite happily keep pigs outdoors in large pens, which allow then to exhibit their natuiral behaviour to root. 

[princesspiggy]

ours are free-range, some on pasture, some in woodland, and they are active most of the day too - not big sleepers.
the woodland copes much better as the tree roots seem to hold the ground together.

[smudger]

mmm.

I do accept heavy clay makes outdoor pig keeping difficult, but then one could argue shouldn't we try to earn a living with and not against the characteristics of our smallholding?  And if we say well we have to earn a living and thus rear pigs indoors with no outside access, on concrete, at what point does that arguement also then justify intensive commercial business models?

I have no idea whether they market their product as freerange, but I really don't think any of them would be dishonest. But as someone purchasing meat at a farmers market then I would be expecting the animals to have been more humanely reared than from a supermarket or standard butcher. I would also argue that a large commercial barn to roam around in is also better than having 5 pigs in a 3x3m concrete pen for 4 -6 months.

I had no idea that free range was not defined for pigs. Must look into what I buy then.....

My pig breeed books says there are a few pigs which graze (and not just Kune kune). In fact its says don't feed GOS in summer (on good grass) as they will get too fat.  . Please don't laugh. I'm learning and I appreciate books aren't everything but I'd rather hold onto a weaner for a month longer if it avoids buying expensive feed and it can lead a (more) natural existence.  I'm not going to do it commercially and at most 2 sets of weaners or 8-9 mths of the year.

Of course my real dilemma is we have a former block built piggery units, but they don't have any direct grass access, only to a yard. How to justify with my husband that we need to buy an expensive pig ark to put in the orchard?

[Fowgill Farm]

I had no idea that free range was not defined for pigs. Must look into what I buy then.....

My pig breeed books says there are a few pigs which graze (and not just Kune kune). In fact its says don't feed GOS in summer (on good grass) as they will get too fat.  . Please don't laugh. I'm learning and I appreciate books aren't everything but I'd rather hold onto a weaner for a month longer if it avoids buying expensive feed and it can lead a (more) natural existence.  I'm not going to do it commercially and at most 2 sets of weaners or 8-9 mths of the year.

Of course my real dilemma is we have a former block built piggery units, but they don't have any direct grass access, only to a yard. How to justify with my husband that we need to buy an expensive pig ark to put in the orchard?

UK labelling laws are a disgrace,even reading labels is a nightmare. Free range should mean outside reared pigs. Don't get fooled by outdoor bred (means they were born outside and then herded into big sheds to be fattened) even organic dosen't necessarily mean good welfare, you can call pork organic if it was kept in a coalhouse and fed organic food! best thing to do is find a local producer and go visit, most pig keepers are happy to talk pork & piggies for hours. Check some of the breed society websites for members details.
As a GOS keeper i can tell you that they do need feeding even if on grass during the summer, there would be a riot otherwise and they need the protein from the nuts to grow strong bones and meat tissue/muscle.
Is there no way you can make a passage from the piggery's to the orchard using some hurdles, a pig ark for summer pigs need not be expensive we have an old garage door set on four posts and 3 sides of it enclosed with solid pallets so it cost next to nothing, it was originally put in as a sum shelter but the last two lots of weaners have took to living in it! 24/7.
HTH
Mandy 

[robert waddell]

Mandy you could end up in the bad baby corner like myself
why is the first thing any  new piggy person wants is an ark   if you want summer accommodation make a straw house out of bales there should be details of how to make one in one of these books and if not come back and ask
again this grass eating pig myth  they cannot live on grass they are not designed to live on grass  grass is only a filler and serves the same purpose as sawdust it is only a filler
smudger who wrote the book you were quoting from
feeding pigs has a skill to it to get the best return with minimal cost in the shortest time

[Fowgill Farm]

Mandy you could end up in the bad baby corner like myself

What...... Moi? 

Mandy

[robert waddell]

i will lead you astray

[smudger]

Robert - "Choosing and keeping pigs" by Linda McDonald-Brown. (p127. GOS)  Also says the Large Black can get 50% of its food intake from grass and says that the B/saddleback is a grazer.

Re - pig ark, we really need something wind and rain proof (ok ok, if not pretty in the orchard).  Plus thought if portable, can at least move pigs on if poaching does occur. The piggery units are open fronted - whatever was there to close them in is long gone.  Will they respect metal hurdles if we tie them together and bolt to the walls somehow? Farms we visited had stable doors that could stop a rhino to my eyes (but they were breeding.).

Thanks for responses anyway.