[Violetsprite]

Hello everyone - i've just stumbled across this site and love it as a source of advice! I've had goats for about 14 years but only small numbers and generally taken in as older goats looking for new home. Just this week i have collected 2 x 4 month old gorgeous girls - one looks BT other looks Saanen x but they are sisters and mum looked like a x - smaller than my saanen but not as small as pygmy & cream in colour. They are adorable & extremely friendly having had some bottle feeding to supplement the mum who wasn't a great milker apparently. Questions i have are - firstly - i have put them in a barn together but separate from my 2 older girls (a Saanen with horns & English without - both 10 yrs +) - they have been walked around the field with them but my Saanen is a bit of a head butta - so question is how long should i supervise meetings or am i worrying too much and should trust that the kids will quickly learn to keep out of her way? Secondly - they weren't registered - apparently because they were between defra forms ?? Anyway i have the holding no where they came from so should i tag them with this no. or my own? Any advice much appreciated - thanks.

[tizaala]

I take it the person you got them from " Delivered " them to you so you were'nt responsible for any missing paperwork or tags, so personaly , in a hypothetical situation like this I would be inclined to stick my own tags in as they are only 4 mnths old , at least then you will have some sort of record when you are inspected.

[wytsend]

The law requires them to be tagged with the no from the holding of birth.... the AML1 form should have had their individual numbers on  so there won't be a problem to get tags with these numbers .

The previous owner has, as we all know, broken the law regarding this matter  so be very careful otherwise you could be the one with the fine for incorrectly tagged kids.   I do know of a case where this happened & the new owner was fined £1000 per offence. 

There really is no such thing as 'between Defra forms' !!!!!   This is nearly as bad as selling a horse without a passport saying it is to follow.

As I daid before,  be very careful.... The AML1 form which you send to Trading Standards must match the kids movements from the holding of birth.

[Anke]

RE supervising them while in the field - given that you have an older (herd leader) girl with horns and I presume these kids have been disbudded it would be advisable to supervise for a while until you are sure they do not fight and the kids have taken the message and avoid the older ladies....

It could all work out very well or it could take a while - just play it by ear.

I cannot advise you on the legal transport matters though and you can definitely not register them if the breeder is not prepared to do it for you (and s/he would need to either own the male or have a service certificate etc etc). If you are keen to register them, then offering to pay the registration fees on behalf of the breeder may be a good option. And then the breeder could als supply you with the appropriate tags... but I would be a bit suspicious if the breeder is not prepared to register them, as to what their parentage is and therefore what their potential could be.

However if you have older female goats no-one in officaldom would question the presence of kids with your herd number on their tags on your holding...

[Violetsprite]

Thank you for your comments - especially Anke - good points. I don't think there is anything suspicious with these breeders - i think they are just a bit naive - as perhaps am i - although obviously if i had bred them i would have found out the right thing to do . however they are not 'breeders' in any formal sense this was a one off intended to result in milking the mum which they then decided was too much hard work - bit of a laid back approach - but more due to laziness than an intention to mislead. I don't have a problem taking care of registering them hence asking for advice. Thanks again

[Fleecewife]

Wytsend is correct - please see my reply in your introduction. The breeders may be too laid back to have bothered with the correct procedure but this is not just something to smile and shake your head at - there are potential consequences, not just for you and them, but for all livestock farmers.

<<However if you have older female goats no-one in officaldom would question the presence of kids with your herd number on their tags on your holding...>>
This may be true if you have a billy, but otherwise you would have to falsify your records to show that either a billy had visited you, or your nannies had left the holding to visit a billy (and both of these movements would have to correspond with the supposed billy's owners records).  You would also have to falsify your records to show the kids had been born on your holding.  Were you to do this you would be digging yourself an ever deeper hole.  Please don't follow that road but remember your responsibilty to the rest of the livestock industry.

[Violetsprite]

Thank you for your further comment. I have been in touch with seller who says she rang Defra and said she was selling 2 & keeping 1 and they told her not to worry until she received her forms in November ? So now what? I think the seller might be open to co-operation so would the best be for me to tag them with her nos. & get her to send the forms off?

[Violetsprite]

It's just occurred to me that the reason i was getting confused about 'registering' was that i had thought when you newly tag goats you had to send forms off - having only taken in older already tagged goats i hadn't had to look into this before but now i realise it is only for the AML1 form .

[Hopewell]

I think I would contact the local animal health office at the council and explain the situation and ask for their advice. I know of a rescue charity that takes in livestock (pigs, goats and sheep) from time to time and they frequently have no identification. The local council have usually advised them to put their own tags in and to record the movements in their own book.
I also had a problem with a piglet that was found running in the streets a few miles from my home. Noone claimed it and I agreed to take it. It had no identification and no movement licence. I put it in my movement book and about a month later my book was inspected by the council. They were actually very understanding and issued a licence for its movement.

[wytsend]

Animal Health are the people to contact.... in turn they will issue a Movement Licence to Trading Standards.

BUT you must contact them ... if you don't... you will be the one that runs the risk of prosecution.  Ignorance of the Movement laws is not accepted.... the last owner will have been only too aware of what they were doing.

If you don't make the necessary contact,   your movement book/eartag numbers won't match up with the official records..... you won't believe how much info Trading Standards have about livestock keepers !!!!


Sorry to sound rather blunt   but  do you really want a hefty fine ?

[Violetsprite]

Hopewell - thanks lovely advice - i'm sure you are right that Animal Health will be understanding - thank you for pointing me in the right direction. Wytsend - thank you too although i don't feel as you do that the sellers knew what they should be doing... they are not breeders - & there must be plenty of people out there who have one or 2 goats and let them kid without having much to do with officialdom - wrong i know but still likely. Anyway i am inclined to ask for their help first and so have been back to them to explain & they have said they will get right onto it - so fingers crossed it will be resolved - however if i don't hear back by the end of the week i will contact Animal Health myself as advised - thanks again.

[colliewoman]

. Wytsend - thank you too although i don't feel as you do that the sellers knew what they should be doing... they are not breeders - & there must be plenty of people out there who have one or 2 goats and let them kid without having much to do with officialdom - wrong i know but still likely. Anyway i am inclined to ask for their help first and so have been back to them to explain & they have said they will get right onto it - so fingers crossed it will be resolved - however if i don't hear back by the end of the week i will contact Animal Health myself as advised - thanks again.

My turn to be blunt ( hello btw!)
they should have known before they embarked on selling/moving animals. they knew enough to know they were 'between defra forms' so they should have known they cannot move animals without tags.
however i have before taken in animals that were tagged incorrectly, and a quick call to animal health will give you the info/best way forward.
it is too late imo for the previous seller to be able to do much unless they have the correct tags hanging around (in which case there was no reason not to tags them before they left).
in my case i was told to double tag them with red replacement tags with MY flock mark.
out of interest in my case the sheep were destined for slaughter so had slaughter tags in, but i chose to keep them, unfortunately they also had individual id numbers so werent correct slaughter tags i cant order tags that arent my flock mark so red replacers were the easiest way around this. i suspect red replacements will be the easiest for you also but you must go by what animal health instruct.
i swear there should be a course run somewhere on 'how to speak fluent defra' but i go by no tag, not paperwork = not coming to my holding.

have fun!

[wytsend]

Violetsprite... your faith in human nature is commendable but I hope for your sake that things work out.  As Colliewoman said, the fact they knew about 'defra forms'  tells me they knew exactly what they were doing & that they were breaking the law.   

If Trading Standards choose to act in a way that you do not like i.e.... blame you for the movement taking place without the correct tags & paperwork..... you would be very upset.   The next step would be a Court Room.   Again sorry to be blunt but Officialdom in these matters has no feelings for individuals.
 
Because we all have to toe the line with regard to animal movements whether you have 1 or several thousand animals, ignorance of the law would not be accepted as an excuse.

NO ANIMALS SHOULD MOVE PREMISES WITHOUT TAGS or AML 1 FORMS.... it is inviting trouble.

Even a single pet goat requires an AML 1 form to change premises !!!!!!!!     All the time those goats remain on your premises without the correct tags.... they are there ILLEGALLY... ownership has nothing to do with it.

[Anke]

Can we please tone it down and actually be helpful to newcomers (to the forum as well as to goat ownership/transfer)?!

Violte came here for some advice - for example on how to integrate the young kids into her herd. Nobody has even bothered to answer that question, but everybody gets hung up on AML1s and tags....

We all know the rules and regulations to a different level - I would love to meet someone (even wihtin DEFRA) who knows it all.... and we all have been (possibly quite naive..) beginners at some point. Also I would bet there is not a single goatkeeper with more than a couple of animals that have ALL their goats tagged correctly all the time - I have a few with only one tag at any given time as ears keep getting infected, tags ripped out, ears split etc etc....

Violet - red tags are the easiest, especially if you know the original owners CPH or herd number as a reference. Animals get rescued without AML1s every single day, so that scenario would not be unheard of in your local Animal Health /trading standard office. You can order a small number of red tags (with yout own goat flock number on it) from wherever you normally order your tags, for goats they do not have to be EID, just two are needed.

How are your kids getting on?

[Violetsprite]

Thanks Anke - goats are absolutely adorable thank you - although it's been so cold i haven't had much chance to let them run free with the others but i  have been taking them for walks everyday - accompanied by my 10 month old pup & 1 of our cats - it's a lovely scene!  I've attached some photos.  Thank you also for suggesting a bit of calm - luckily i've been around long enough not to be panicked by talk of court but i agree that as i had already said i would call Animal Health myself i don't think there is need for panic or indeed scaremongering (sorry if that sounds blunt  . Thanks for the advice about red tags - i will do this if necessary although seller came back with CPH & herd no. and has offered to supply correct tags so hopefully all will be well - you never know eh Wytsend - will this give you added hope for human nature? With regard to using red tags if this is necessary should these have my flock/herd no. or sellers & is it 1 per ear i.e. 2 per goat? Thanks again to everyone - this site is invaluable for info ...  as well as an interesting for observation of personalities  LOL.