[Corrie Dhu]

Rosemary a lot of hill farm do run their ewe lambs with the ewes in the manner you describe.  Some people even "breek" their ewe lambs and don't take them out when the tups go in.  A guy I know still does this although it's an old fashioned thing now really and many people send their ewe lambs away to wintering to give them the best chance.

I generally have plenty of grass all year round so do leave the ewe lambs with the ewes until about now and may combine them during the winter depending on the weather.  It's handy for teaching them to come to the feeding.

I have fed beet pulp pellets for years and don't soak them, just scatter them on the ground in a long line so the sheep have to forage for them.  Not had any problems touch wood.

[feldar]

We feed sugarbeet pellets on the ground unsoaked but we try not to feed to much hay before lambing, an old shepherd once told us too much dry hay can cause prolapses in late pregnant ewes. This chap had shepherded all his working life and did know a thing or two so we heed his advice.

[SallyintNorth]

The key thing about prolapsing in late pregnancy is that she doesn't have much room for food, the lambs are taking it all up!  High-performing ewes would normally be getting cake, usually in two feeds so that the rumen doesn't get overloaded.

I haven't heard about hay being a problem but could imagine any very wet and bulky feed meaning they either take in too much and haven't the room for it all, or can't eat enough as they haven't the room so don't get enough nutrients.  Perhaps if they are eating dry hay they then drink a lot of water, which takes up room and also fills their bladder...?

Speaking of which - I haven't used sugar beet for sheep as at the moment it costs the same as cake, so we feed cake.  But if you feed sugar beet dry, presumeably they need to drink water (like a dog or cat on dried food) - would this be something to think about when there is snow on the ground and the water troughs are frozen?

[lachlanandmarcus]

One extra thing, we had a lamb injured this year when a loose wheel on a small IAE hay hake came off tipping the hake at one corner and a very young just castrated boy lamb crept underneath and somehow the thing tipped back and came down on his leg. He now has a permanent limp and probably wont be able to go to the abbatoir, may have to be PTS here or a home kill.

The hay hake is a great boon but just make sure all those wheels are on tight - it only took less than an hour for this poor chap to get hurt and there was nothing else in the field he could possibly have found to hurt himself on :-(

[Corrie Dhu]

Depends on the breed regarding prolapses.  It's something you should cull heavily for.  I have never had a prolapse in a Shetland or Cheviot x Shetland ewe, however I have done contract lambings where each morning I had about 4 ewes to sort out (different ones each day!).

If you feed sugar beet on the ground as I do, they eat snow along with the pellets.  Never had a problem and my fields have streams running through most of them and the sheep don't bother to drink from them if there is snow on the ground, presumably because they prefer eating a bit of snow instead.

[bazzais]

I've been told in no uncertain terms that when the OH has ponies in the field - I cant put sugar beet shreds or pellets down unless in the creep feeders - so I guess they cant eat them without spending a long afternoon digging a big hole.

I try to feed in troughs where possible as its neater but normally line it up on the floor cos I never have enough troughs

When feed anything, haylage or hay to the sheep ablib on the floor I divide it into as many little piles as possible - it may seem like that wastes alot - but the bigger the pile the more they seem to walk and s**t on it - if I have four or five around a little pile they seem to just eat and get it down them.

I have not done any hay this year - gota buy it all in.

I have a supplier whos big bales last year were excellent - even had a choice of cut.  I hope hes ok this year cos I am thinking of getting it in soon- I read the headline on the mail the other day.  I know they are always doom and gloom but an early winter is just going to kill what grazing I have left and the wind will just burn off whats left.

Talking about winter at this point though is far more acceptable than seeing the first teco christmas advert.

- Winter Again.......   arggg

Baz

[Penninehillbilly]

sally i would question your thinking on your last paragraph  the quantity of lambs conceived is determined at the moment of tupping not some time after 

Would nutrition in the couple of weeks following tupping not affect implantation? Do sheep abort  / reabsorb part litters in hard times, like rabbits?

I always thought it was the feeding in the weeks just BEFORE tupping which built the ewe up to fitness and she would produce more eggs?

[SallyintNorth]

sally i would question your thinking on your last paragraph  the quantity of lambs conceived is determined at the moment of tupping not some time after 

Would nutrition in the couple of weeks following tupping not affect implantation? Do sheep abort  / reabsorb part litters in hard times, like rabbits?

I always thought it was the feeding in the weeks just BEFORE tupping which built the ewe up to fitness and she would produce more eggs?

I think it's all of the above.  Farmers who want twins and triplets 'flush' the ewes by putting them on the very best of ground just before letting the tup in; as I understand it this will increase the number of eggs ripening and also aid implantation.  I think Rosemary is also right, in that sheep, like pigs and rabbits, can abort / reabsorb foetuses if they don't have the correct conditions post-tupping.

[robert waddell]

given that a ewe carries the lamb/lambs for 150 days approx and somebody said that the first 50 days are vital to the success of carrying the lambs through to birth
most tups go in on or about 5Th Nov   now take last year for example November was wet and wild with snow from DEC on and yet the incidence of twins and triplets was more than any other year does that not blow that theory out the water 

[SallyintNorth]

most tups go in on or about 5Th Nov   now take last year for example November was wet and wild with snow from DEC on and yet the incidence of twins and triplets was more than any other year does that not blow that theory out the water 

No not at all.  Normally most of us don't feed cake or hay or silage until after Christmas.  There's grass for them but it's not especially nutritious at that time of year.  Last year because of the snow we were all feeding good hay / silage and in our case cake too from mid-Nov.

[robert waddell]

sally i was referring to where i stay        the softie southerners got the snow later than us
and i was only using last year as an example 

[feldar]

Excuse me, i was lambing in that southern snow i aint no softie!  hmmmph

[VSS]

sally i would question your thinking on your last paragraph  the quantity of lambs conceived is determined at the moment of tupping not some time after 

Would nutrition in the couple of weeks following tupping not affect implantation? Do sheep abort  / reabsorb part litters in hard times, like rabbits?

I always thought it was the feeding in the weeks just BEFORE tupping which built the ewe up to fitness and she would produce more eggs?

I think it's all of the above.  Farmers who want twins and triplets 'flush' the ewes by putting them on the very best of ground just before letting the tup in; as I understand it this will increase the number of eggs ripening and also aid implantation.  I think Rosemary is also right, in that sheep, like pigs and rabbits, can abort / reabsorb foetuses if they don't have the correct conditions post-tupping.

You are all correct - flushing ewes in the fortnight prior to tupping will generally cause a ewe to produce more eggs, so twins are more likely. I would recommend this if you keep a hill breed, and have the land to carry twins, but I wouldn't flush a naturally prolific breed such as Lleyns, as too many triplets, quads, even quins, are a total pain in the backside and are one of theose complications you can well do without! Flushing will also improve conception rates and you will get fewer repeats.

Ideally maintain a good level of nutrition for the fist six weeks post tupping - this will aid implantation and help the development of a really strong placenta. Ewes can often re-absorb one of twins if grub is abit tight after they have conceived. Having said that, they really don't need to be fat - in fact, overweight sheep will not hold to the ram as well as their leaner, fitter counterparts.