[grumpsgarden]

looking for some advice please on dogs for sheep , i would like to train a springer as a sheep dog ,but the old man wants a lab and weve been told the only dog to have is a border colie but me and the old woman want a spinger the only thing we agree on is that we need a sheep dog so any advice would be a great help thank you

[robert waddell]

once i pick myself of the floor   i will let Annie (the resident dog expert) answer your query

[doganjo]

Ok, here I am..................

I held a Brittany training day a few weeks ago on my friends' sheep farm near Hawick.  We had various activities but basically they are a gundog of the hunter, pointer, retriever variety.  We did hunting, retreiving, emergency stops, turns etc, agility, and lastly acclimatisation to animals - this included sheep.  My young lad has never seen a sheep in his short life except for the cade lamb we looked after for a bit, which unfortunately died when returend to the flock from coccidiosis - he used to play 'jump and go flat' games with him.  When I went into the field with Malcolm I could see straight away that Bobby was very interested in the sheep, and when Malcolm took the lead from me, I tried to entreat him not to let him off as I knew what was going to happen - or I thought I did.  Bobby took off like a bullet - round the far side of the field, to the rear of the 40 sheep, moved in, and the sheep headed for a small brook runnng under a copse of trees.  He then came round to our side and moved them forward, pushing any stragglers back into the main group by edging forward.  All this time I was screaming his name to try to get him back and on the lead, when suddenly Malcolm held his hand up for me to stop and watch.  Bobby had got all the sheep under the trees, it was an absolute thunderpelt where we were in the middle of the field, but teh sheep were dry, and was just standing about 30 feet away from them watching them quietly graze.  I went over and put his lead on, and Malcom walked the sheep down to the far end of the field and into the pen.  He then proceeded to lift Bobby over into a crammed pen with the sheep pushing and shoving him around.  He found a space and came over to the gate and casually started to eat the grass as if to say 'I was only teaching the sheep how to eat grass Mum!'    We left him in there for a good 10 minutes and he never looked near them again.  But since he is supposed to ignore sheep on a shoot I have to find someone with sheep closer to hiome that I can take him amongst to re-inforce the training.

My oldest brittany, Freckles, who is now ten, did a very similar thing when she was 6 months old - jumped our fence, hared out round our 10 acre field, where the sheep were grazing and brought all 150 of them back to us, then stood back about 30 feet and watched them graze - we didn't actually want them at that time but she wasn't to know that.  She was shot over and never looked near any sheep.

The reason for explaining all this is to say that neither of my dogs was actually chasing the sheep, Malcolm wouldn't have stopped me calling Bobby if he had thought that and would have probably got to him faster than me and given him a good telling off, but if I had so wanted I could have used this episode to train either of them for sheep instead, so it is NOT just the domain of the collie!  
It is my beliefe that although certain breeds have a bias to certain activities they can all be trained to do something different, with my apologies to any died in the wool collie owners.

[grumpsgarden]

thank you for that i was getting very excited thinking we could get the springer when someone piped up that having a springer or lab on our place could be a proplem as they would retrive our birds and kill them so now im not sure again as the dogs we have dont harm the birds and they havent been raised round livestock but we have no props with them so if we got a young pup which is what ive been looking at would the birds be safe or not as i now they are shooting dogs so dont realy want my beloved birds brought to me by a dog, but do want a springer as a sheepdog i like being a bit diffrent from the norm  :wave:thank you

[doganjo]

My four Brittanys will retrieve my ducks without harming them, as they are bred from soft nouthed stock, and on the whole trained to give up to hand.  I wouldn't be 100% sure of them all with my chickens though as they flap.  My older dog would be OK as he was brought up going iin the chicken run with me, but he is absolutely obsessed by ducks.  Mainly because he was sent for a runner as a youngster.  If you obtain a pup from good quality working stock with a proven track record on retrieving without damage, and have it in the chicken and duck run with you every day, them hopefully it will not be interested in them.  I suppose the advantage of a Springer over a Collie is that it is less likely to nip the heels of them sheep, but do train it to a whistle early on, and ensure the basic obedience is instilled from as soon as you get it at 8 weeks

[HappyHippy]

We've not had sheepdogs or working collies - but we used to have a labrador, she was trained as a gundog (and was very good at it too  ) on one occaision when my dad shot a duck, she went off to retrieve it, spent a good 20 minutes looking for it and couldn't find it. The dog was understandably very miffed, when making her way back to my dad, she put up some partridges and without waiting for my dad to shoot them jumped and caught one mid-flight. He was presented with a very live and flapping bird to make up for her earlier loss  
Anyway...... the point of the story is that labradors have very soft mouths, so if they do happen to retrieve something, there's a good chance it'll be okay  
I'm assuming though, that unless they've been taught specifically to retrieve they won't do it much and it would be possible to 'retrain' them not to do it, if they did  
HTH
Karen  

[grumpsgarden]

thank you for your replys i can now discus the pros and cons with the old people bout which breed of dog to get , i know what i would like and also what my mum would like thank god the kids dont get a inbut in the desions on which dog to get , think we will be looking at the springers as its going be 2 against 1 and we always win as women are superior then men lol thank you

[jaykay]

Have one of each.

We have :-) I don't know why you'd bother to go against the grain when a collie is a delight to have about and herding sheep is in their bones so so much easier to teach.

Springers are great fun and mad, but I'd never have wanted to try to train Sam to herd, though he was perfect at retrieving anything (including chicks you wanted leaving with their mums, seedlings you'd just planted out.....)

[grumpsgarden]

i had a springer before they are so loving and as we all ready have 2 dogs that we cant use as a  sheep dog and i realy need a sheep dog as me mum is getting to old to be helping me bring the sheep in , well it is funny watching her try to run round the field trying to get the sheep where she wants them and i walk in to the field with a bucket and they coming running until they relise i want them in a pen then we start again i do like collies but i realy love springers but if its total impossiable to train a springer as a sheep dog then we will get a collie but not the standard black and white i like a nice slate and white or a red one , but as we have more then just sheep here im being sensiable on the breed and asking if its possiable to have the dog we would like or to go with the normal collie thank you

[doganjo]

on one occaision when my dad shot a duck, she went off to retrieve it, spent a good 20 minutes looking for it and couldn't find it. The dog was understandably very miffed, when making her way back to my dad, she put up some partridges and without waiting for my dad to shoot them jumped and caught one mid-flight. He was presented with a very live and flapping bird to make up for her earlier loss  
Anyway...... the point of the story is that labradors have very soft mouths, so if they do happen to retrieve something, there's a good chance it'll be okay  
I'm assuming though, that unless they've been taught specifically to retrieve they won't do it much and it would be possible to 'retrain' them not to do it, if they did  
HTH
Karen  

Sorry to disagree Karen but NOT every labrador is soft mouthed - I heard of one Field trialer that was eliminated last season for hard mouth.  It has to be in the breeding so you really do need to check the credentials of not only the dogs but also the breeder.  They should be able to prove that the parents are soft mouthed.  what your Dad's dog did was called 'pegging' and that is an elinmating factor too, and also she hadn't watched and marked the fall - or perhaps it was a 'runner'.  But you are right about the retrieving - they should be born with the instinct to retrieve and bring to hand in good condition, but it is much more specialised that that for shooting,  the dog needs to learn to go straight out to where the bird's fall was marked, so it needs to be taught to mark the fall.  It also needs to learn to take commands of direction, just in case for any reason it didn't mark the fall and has to be handled onto a retreive or the bird was not shot cleanly and is running/winged, or it has fallen in a difficult place to reach.  It then has to use it's nose to find it.

[Collie26]

Id say collie, having got one myself but also been a very keen shot and regulary see springer doing what they do, hunt. Thats what they are bred for the finding and flushing of game. Yes you could probably train a springer to do what a collie does  but at the end of the day its going to be a whole lot harder than training a collie as its own insticts help it on the way.

I have a collie, who works as a sheepdog and comes out shooting and yes she will find birds and flush to the gun but doesnt have the natural ability to hunt like a springer.

So all in all go for a collie because they are a sheepdog and a springer is a gundog

or you could get a sprollie i think they call them a springer collie cross

[Collie26]

Annie, i do agree that sometimes hard mouths come from breeding but more times its due to the individual animal. Breeding in the dog i feel isnt the pinical of the dog because some of the best working dogs wouldnt make it in the trialing world, some dogs are just bred for trails but whats the point if thats all they can do?? Often in the shooting field dogs will stumble across a bird sitting tight and as we call it 'prick' a bird, but att the end of the day its another bird for the pot. Yes in a trailing worl they would be marked down but sometimes the best dogs come from parent who havent got generations of  ftch and ftw but just good honest working parents.

Not having a go at anyone just voicing an opinion about trailing and breeding of dogs

[Fronhaul]

My GSP once retrieved some chickens belonging to a neighbour that had strayed.  Soft mouthed he left not a mark on them but sadly they died of fright in any event.

I think it might take an exceptional Springer and exceptional training to make a working sheepdog out of a Springer.  Having said that and looked a little further I was amazed to see a terrier on the list of potential herding breeds, namely the Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier.  My Swedish Vallhund worked sheep and was excellent at it despite coming to it late in life.  I retired him because he was taking a few knocks from time to time and Jacob horns are hard on a 12 year old.  Vallhunds are really intended as cattle dogs though and that is where their natural abilities lie.

I was watching a 16 week old collie beginning to work sheep yesterday and her natural herding instincts are astonishing.  But there are plenty of herding dogs around other than collies if you want something different so perhaps go for a Springer and one of the other herding breeds?

[Rosemary]

Training a working collie is a lot of work and they need regular work to keep them sane. I don't see how many sheep you have - we have 20. There is no way we have enough work to justify a working dog. Maybe just work on the bucket following and have a springer for what springers do.

[grumpsgarden]

at the moment we have 10 sheep but are trying to build them up a little it was we where advised to get a working dog due to the fact its normaly just me trying to bring them in as my parents are getting old and as my kids say im not young any more cheeky little blitters , it was quite funny when the shearer was here he had to catch 2 for me as no matter what i did just couldnt get them in the right area and the kids where no help rolling on the floor laughthing so after some disscusions at ahome and with some local farmers it was decided to get a sheep dog and as iwas after getting a springer thought i might ask if i could train it as a sheep dog my brothers think im funny he has them as gun dogs , but like the sound of a springer collie cross where can i find one thank you