Author Topic: Wind Farms  (Read 54757 times)

mab

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • carmarthenshire
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #105 on: May 23, 2011, 02:37:04 pm »
As a degree qualified physicist I learned long ago about the issues of nuclear waste storage so I am firmly in the anti-nuclear group. That's without considering the risks of accidents - Japan is a first world country and is a world leader in understanding the risks of earthquake and tsunamis - the recent quake was large, but it was a predicted event and nothing happened that geologists couldn't have anticipated, and yet the nuclear station failed (spectacularly) to cope.

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Yes the spent fuel is a problem - but reactions like this go-on throughout the universe and harnessing that power safely will be the future.
Oh? they haven't found a solution to the problem of spent fuel waste in the last 50 years - what makes you think a solution will magically appear in the next 50 years?

I do reluctantly acknowledge that nuclear power is probably required whilst a more permanent solution is found because gov't will not want to strangle the economy by forcing industry to reduce consumption.

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No, tell me how many were killed or injured in the 3 mile island incident or how many have been killed by the Japanese meltdown? instead of lashing out with hysterical outbursts just have a look at the actual number of people killed or injured by nuclear generation and compare that number with, for instance, those killed in coal mining in the same period.

Well the trouble with radiation is that its effects are cumulative over time and deaths / illnesses are hard to distinguish from other possible causes. If someone dies of cancer in the vicinity of windscale (sellafield), it's hard to tell if the cancer was caused by exposure to radiation or not.

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Energy consumption and production needs to be localised - I dont see any reason why I cant have a small scale wind mill on my farm.

Nor I. I try to produce as much of my own electrical power as I can, and use solar for heating or burn locally sourced wood (bits of the hedge usually). localised energy production is good - up to a point - but there are economies of scale - the environmental cost of five-hundred 1kw turbine installations is significantly more than the cost of one 500kw turbine; and the 500kw turbine would be taller, see more wind and produce more power over its life.


Coley

  • Joined Apr 2011
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #106 on: May 23, 2011, 05:53:23 pm »

Japan is a first world country and is a world leader in understanding the risks of earthquake and tsunamis - the recent quake was large, but it was a predicted event and nothing happened that geologists couldn't have anticipated, and yet the nuclear station failed (spectacularly) to cope.

The main problem (as I remember) was caused mainly by the failure of back up diesel pumps for the coolant, which doesn't indicate a very through degree of preparedness given the incidence of tsunamis and earthquakes, given this incidence why was the PS built so close to the sea?
Also the Japanese PS is, I believe 40 years old, I would suggest technology has moved on a great deal since then and there is the possibility of a thorium reactors being developed in the near future which will be a great improvement on the current designs

deepinthewoods

  • Guest
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #107 on: May 23, 2011, 06:24:18 pm »
Aye, but you (and nobody else) has answered the problem of where do we go for power when the wind drops, per GW generated, Nuclear is the safest form of power we have.

most uk nps are due for decomissoning cos they are so old and inefficient. we produce some of the highest VOlUMES of nuclear waste in the world (MILLIONS OF TONS) and only get 18% of our leccy for it. thats only 10% more than the renewables we have SO FAR.
we have NO SOLUTiON to the waste generated so far and you want more.
that is not a safe form of power. its a desecration of our natural environment and an appallng legacy to leave our kids.
id much prefer my grandchildren, (assuming i have some one day) to be deccommissioning a wind farm rather than burying nuclear waste and trying to deccommison a nps.

oh yeah if the welsh etc sheep were radioactive dont you think we all are.....

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #108 on: May 23, 2011, 06:41:04 pm »
there is an increase in cancer cases especially in farming circles at least up in Scotland but try getting the government scientists to admit that
you have more chance of winning the lottery :wave:

Coley

  • Joined Apr 2011
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #109 on: May 23, 2011, 06:47:21 pm »
Aye, but you (and nobody else) has answered the problem of where do we go for power when the wind drops, per GW generated, Nuclear is the safest form of power we have.

most uk nps are due for decomissoning cos they are so old and inefficient. we produce some of the highest VOlUMES of nuclear waste in the world (MILLIONS OF TONS) and only get 18% of our leccy for it. thats only 10% more than the renewables we have SO FAR.
we have NO SOLUTiON to the waste generated so far and you want more.
that is not a safe form of power. its a desecration of our natural environment and an appallng legacy to leave our kids.
id much prefer my grandchildren, (assuming i have some one day) to be deccommissioning a wind farm rather than burying nuclear waste and trying to deccommison a nps.

oh yeah if the welsh etc sheep were radioactive dont you think we all are.....


Now I hate to be annoying, but again, where do we get our power from when the wind aint blowing?
By 2020 we will have lost over 40% of our generating capacity due to closures of current plant due to age and EU directives, whats going to replace it? we produce millions of tons of nuclear waste? where did you get those figures from? if you dont mind me asking
We are all radioactive to a certain degree.

deepinthewoods

  • Guest
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #110 on: May 23, 2011, 06:54:01 pm »
my post on page 3


''nuclear waste generation.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_nuc_was_gen-energy-nuclear-waste-generated

 spot the pattern....
would u like it buried in your back yard?
better than a wind farm that COULD be temporary whilst we develop truly green energy?''

deepinthewoods

  • Guest
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #111 on: May 23, 2011, 07:11:42 pm »
ive just reread the table and cant find where i worked it out to 'millions' of tons its more like 1000's Im humbly sorry for beng inaccurate tho it really doesnt change the point of my argument.

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #112 on: May 23, 2011, 07:24:18 pm »
i dont want to get betwean two lovers but the differance i would say is 990,000 tons       not just a drop in the ocean
and no i am not trying to minimise  the waste problem

deepinthewoods

  • Guest
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #113 on: May 23, 2011, 07:54:48 pm »
this is the quote i extrapolated incorrectly from...

''The amount of nuclear waste produced per member of the UK populations is 840 cm3 (i.e. a volume of under one litre). Of this waste, 90% of the volume is only slightly radioactive and is categorised as low-level waste (with only 1% of the total radioactivity of all radioactive wastes). Intermediate-level waste makes up 7% of the volume and has 4% of the radioactivity. The most radioactive form of waste is categorised as high-level waste and whilst accounting for only 3% of the volume of all the radioactive waste produced (equating to around 25 cm3 per UK citizen per year), it contains 95% of the radioactivity.''

from
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf04.html

Coley

  • Joined Apr 2011
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #114 on: May 23, 2011, 08:15:17 pm »
my post on page 3


''nuclear waste generation.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_nuc_was_gen-energy-nuclear-waste-generated

 spot the pattern....
would u like it buried in your back yard?
better than a wind farm that COULD be temporary whilst we develop truly green energy?''

But we would be left with nowt everytime the wind drops, now even if we covered the British isles in windfarms so when the wind blows we actually produced enough energy to meet our demands the minute the wind drops we would be cream crackered, the big fault with wind generation is that it needs conventional fossil burning PSs to be ticking away in the background.
This country is going to be hit with blackouts in the near future unless something is done PDQ and blackouts will hit us a lot more severely than the three day week, due to our much higher reliance on gas and electric, spend a few minutes visualising the consequences of regular and major power cuts.

deepinthewoods

  • Guest
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #115 on: May 23, 2011, 08:29:40 pm »
i agree wind farms arent the solution but nor is nuclear.
 reducing our reliance on energy, and maximising our development of safe low impact energy probably is.

fyi http://www.wavehub.co.uk/

mab

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • carmarthenshire
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #116 on: May 23, 2011, 10:57:18 pm »
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But we would be left with nowt everytime the wind drops, now even if we covered the British isles in windfarms so when the wind blows we actually produced enough energy to meet our demands the minute the wind drops we would be cream crackered, the big fault with wind generation is that it needs conventional fossil burning PSs to be ticking away in the background.

Firstly, I don't think anyone has suggested that we should use windfarms exclusively - there will always be something else - hopefully several different sources.

Secondly, the windfarm output won't drop out instantaneously over the entire country, windfarm output will have a steady decline over hours/ days as the weather-system moves off - which can be predicted and the conventional PS (be it nuclear/fossil/other) can be spooled up over those timescales to meet demand. We already have Powerstations 'ticking over' in the background to cover short-term fluctuations in demand which happen faster than a PS can be spooled up, and wind generators won't change that (e.g. when an (alleged) 2million people switched on the kettle after the royal wedding).

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This country is going to be hit with blackouts in the near future unless something is done PDQ and blackouts will hit us a lot more severely than the three day week, due to our much higher reliance on gas and electric, spend a few minutes visualising the consequences of regular and major power cuts.

Well, as I said in my last post we probably will have nuclear for the near future. If the Thorium cycle plants are developed and live up to their press they will be much better than existing technology (much less waste, and they failsafe instead of going into meltdown), but like wave & tidal power, the technology is still in its infancy.

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The main problem (as I remember) was caused mainly by the failure of back up diesel pumps for the coolant, which doesn't indicate a very through degree of preparedness given the incidence of tsunamis and earthquakes, given this incidence why was the PS built so close to the sea?

That's right! But that's the point - they were the LAST backup system bar the battery (which kept the pumps running for 8 hours). I think they call it a 'common mode failure' - when something happens that takes out ALL the backup systems along with the main systems; historically, people who plan for disasters tend to overlook the common mode failure.

Power stations have to be built with access to large quantities of cooling water (they're typically less than 30% efficient, so need to dump a lot of heat). This is a bit speculative on my part but I think nuclear plants are usually placed by the sea as it was historically considered a 'good' place to dump contaminated cooling water in an accident (gets dispersed quickly - away from humans).

Sorry Coley, I hope you don't take all this personally, but as the pro-nuclear voice in this debate it all seems to be directed at you.  ;D

IMHO there should be more gov't effort directed at reducing consumption of energy, then development of new technologies for generation, transmission and storage of energy.


Coley

  • Joined Apr 2011
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #117 on: May 23, 2011, 11:32:27 pm »
i agree wind farms arent the solution but nor is nuclear.
 reducing our reliance on energy, and maximising our development of safe low impact energy probably is.

fyi http://www.wavehub.co.uk/

You might find this surprising but I totally agree with you, however, and its a big however, there is going to be a huge energy gap between 2020 and 2050 when most of the renewables are projected to start coming 'on stream' and its this (and the previous govts) seeming belief that this gap can be covered by wind.
 Now I dont want to be alarmist, but I am sure you can remember the chaos when we had a realatively short lived shortage of fuel a few years ago? imagine that (and peoples behaviour) if that shortage became a shortage, on not just  fuel for cars, but a shortage of all the essentials we daily take for granted and you will perhaps see why I would like to see something proven and reliable in place to cover the projected shortfall.

Coley

  • Joined Apr 2011
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #118 on: May 24, 2011, 08:10:47 am »
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But we would be left with nowt everytime the wind drops, now even if we covered the British isles in windfarms so when the wind blows we actually produced enough energy to meet our demands the minute the wind drops we would be cream crackered, the big fault with wind generation is that it needs conventional fossil burning PSs to be ticking away in the background.

Firstly, I don't think anyone has suggested that we should use windfarms exclusively - there will always be something else - hopefully several different sources.

But thats the problem we seem to be putting all our eggs (and money) into the windfarm basket, all other options are still at the development or pilot stagem and there are many other options, perhaps we can keep the plants due to close in operation to cover the gap but it doesnt look likely with this govts slavish obssession with meeting CO2 reductions

Secondly, the windfarm output won't drop out instantaneously over the entire country, windfarm output will have a steady decline over hours/ days as the weather-system moves off - which can be predicted and the conventional PS (be it nuclear/fossil/other) can be spooled up over those timescales to meet demand. We already have Powerstations 'ticking over' in the background to cover short-term fluctuations in demand which happen faster than a PS can be spooled up, and wind generators won't change that (e.g. when an (alleged) 2million people switched on the kettle after the royal wedding).

When we had those very cold months during the winter windfarm output was practically zero across the whole country

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This country is going to be hit with blackouts in the near future unless something is done PDQ and blackouts will hit us a lot more severely than the three day week, due to our much higher reliance on gas and electric, spend a few minutes visualising the consequences of regular and major power cuts.

Well, as I said in my last post we probably will have nuclear for the near future. If the Thorium cycle plants are developed and live up to their press they will be much better than existing technology (much less waste, and they failsafe instead of going into meltdown), but like wave & tidal power, the technology is still in its infancy.

there has been a lot of effort gone into it over the last few years and it would seem  converting some existing plant to a combined thorium/plutonium would be a viable short term option

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The main problem (as I remember) was caused mainly by the failure of back up diesel pumps for the coolant, which doesn't indicate a very through degree of preparedness given the incidence of tsunamis and earthquakes, given this incidence why was the PS built so close to the sea?



Sorry Coley, I hope you don't take all this personally, but as the pro-nuclear voice in this debate it all seems to be directed at you.  ;D

No, of course not, I fully understand where people are coming from, there was nobody more anti nuclear/pro wind than mesel at one time but I dont fancy the consequences of severe power shortages which are now a real possibility due to years of govt ineptitude.

IMHO there should be more gov't effort directed at reducing consumption of energy, then development of new technologies for generation, transmission and storage of energy.

Totally agree but they seem to have left it a tad late :)



deepinthewoods

  • Guest
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #119 on: May 24, 2011, 09:33:54 am »
i agree ''a tad late'' so lets not cause more delay by obstucting windfarms eh?

 

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