[shetlandpaul]

nope. it Shetlands. Shetland was only ever loaned to scotland to cover a marrage debt. It never became scottish so never became British. Most of the oil from the north sea and that being taken from the east and soon west of shetland falls within its recognised territorial waters. Shetland had its own laws and language until the Scots took over and imposed there will. just as the scots and irish are not over fond of the English. The same is felt for Scotland up here. In fact there is a small independence movement that want to be free from scottish/british and eu rule. in fact a lot would prefer to be part of norway than the uk.
were is the english oil fields and gas. 

[deepinthewoods]

back on topic
nuclear waste generation.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_nuc_was_gen-energy-nuclear-waste-generated

 spot the pattern....
would u like it buried in your back yard?
better than a wind farm that COULD be temporary whilst we develop truly green energy?

[SallyintNorth]

I've only just sat down with a cuppa to read this thread.  Up until it went off topic I was full of warmth and admiration for all contributors, all opinions thoughtfully and level-headedly expressed.  Green energy and particularly wind energy has been a bit of an interest of mine for a few years now, ever since I saw the eerily beautiful installation near Llandysul and discovered how proud the local people were of their (then) unusual adornment of the skyline.

Subsequently I lived in an area of North Devon where a 1-mile chain of them was proposed along a ridge.  I suggested the 'Say YES to WIND' poster campaign and was amazed and pleased at how many people did put up a 'Yes' poster.  (Many didn't and at least some of them feared their neighbours' reaction to any positive support and so were closet supporters.)

We looked into a farm-scale windmill at my previous farm.  There are not very many places more windy on mainland Britain so it seemed sensible to look into it.  In our case, we decided against having realised that yes, they don't boil kettles.  They're great for all that 'background' consumption (lights, computers, TVs) but anything drawing kilowatts per hour will sap them very quickly.  So no we couldn't harness the wind to cook or to heat the farmhouse.  Since we were by no means frugal in our use of electricity we concluded that by the time we'd concreted a platform on one of our few bits of good ground, overall we and the planet would be better off if we just got more efficient at using the energy we paid for. There were other issues, such as you couldn't realistically have one that both paid you for excess electricity and was available to you in the event of a power cut, and such as it was not possible to predict if there would be a whine.  (Some do and some don't, apparently.)  Financially we would have been better off going for it, but only because of the grant support available at the time.  And we could make similar savings by turning things off a bit more...

Later we looked at a community-sized one, owned by the community, using the wind on our land.  This was a much better idea but the site was unsuitable because we were so far (2.5km) from a connection where we could feed into the grid.  A group of people are still looking into this option but it will not be on that farm.

We saw the windmills on Orkney and were led to believe that further development of exportable windpower on Orkney requires a bigger pipe to take the electricity back to the mainland.  So again, a windy site is too remote to be, at this point, practicable as an energy-generating resource except in a local context.

[AengusOg]

A couple of points to enhance your education on Scotland, Coley.

There are no such places as 'The Orkneys' or 'The Shetlands', as you describe them. They are correctly known as either The Shetland Isles, or Shetland, and The Orkney Isles, or Orkney.

You say you are a unionist, yet you say if Scotland wants independence we should get on with it and not wait four years. Surely, as a devolved government, the SNP have the ball at their feet and can decide, for Scotland, when we shall hold the referendum. This is something you can't control and must wait for.

I suspect your racist and class attitudes extend beyond the 'Pikeys' and horse owners, and you may, like many other English people still domiciled in Englandshire, view us Scots as an inferior people. I hope I am wrong.

Scotland has always been a thorn in the side of the English government with the West Lothian question. Isn't it awful, and shockingly unfair, that Scots MPs should have a say on English matters in Westminster? Yet the English decided on all Scottish matters for three hundred years, during which time we did not have our own parliament.

I'm afraid, Coley, the time is fast approaching when the Scots will be the sole deciders of what is good for us, and whether or not we wish to continue to be servile to covetous, overbearing neighbours, or whether we shall declare ourselves free and the architects of our own destiny.

Perhaps that will be the best thing that's ever happened to Englandshire. You will be able to spend all your own money without having to subsidise us. You will be able to argue the points of debate in London without interference from our MPs. You will be able to say you are English, not British, and you will be able to embrace your nationality and be proud of who you are...once you have identified those points.

You will have your very own queen to reign over you, and you can be secure in the knowledge that you are all subjects of hers, and you can have all your union flags back from us, if you want them. We may even have a few Tory MPs to spare, if you need them.

I think it will be good for Englandshire to be free of the Scots, and the Welsh. You'll still have a bit of Ireland to keep you all occupied.

[goosepimple]

From a Dundee lass living in the Borders, that was superb Mr Og

[sabrina]

I agree, well said from a very proud Scots 

[doganjo]

Pure dead brilliant, as my old Dad used to say!  He was Glaswegian, a proud Scot, and SNP member; my Mum was an Aberdonian, also a proud Scot;  me, I'm a half caste - and a very new SNP Member.  All of us very proud of the heritage that not many countries can aspire to.

Yours for Scotland

Annie

[Coley]

Shetland had its own laws and language until the Scots took over and imposed there will. just as the scots and irish are not over fond of the English. The same is felt for Scotland up here

Whey, if thr Scots do get 'independence' then it seems they will have the same problems as they are presenting us go for it

[SallyintNorth]

I am finding the arguments and counter-arguments all very interesting re: the independence of Scotland etc.

But I really wish someone (who knows how to) could and would split this thread into two so that the also very interesting original thread on wind power could continue on for those of us with no particular axe to grind on the national borders issues.

Happy to be over-ruled if that is not the majority opinion!   

[Coley]

A couple of points to enhance your education on Scotland, Coley.

There are no such places as 'The Orkneys' or 'The Shetlands', as you describe them. They are correctly known as either The Shetland Isles, or Shetland, and The Orkney Isles, or Orkney.

You say you are a unionist, yet you say if Scotland wants independence we should get on with it and not wait four years. Surely, as a devolved government, the SNP have the ball at their feet and can decide, for Scotland, when we shall hold the referendum. This is something you can't control and must wait for.

I suspect your racist and class attitudes extend beyond the 'Pikeys' and horse owners, and you may, like many other English people still domiciled in Englandshire, view us Scots as an inferior people. I hope I am wrong.

Scotland has always been a thorn in the side of the English government with the West Lothian question. Isn't it awful, and shockingly unfair, that Scots MPs should have a say on English matters in Westminster? Yet the English decided on all Scottish matters for three hundred years, during which time we did not have our own parliament.

I'm afraid, Coley, the time is fast approaching when the Scots will be the sole deciders of what is good for us, and whether or not we wish to continue to be servile to covetous, overbearing neighbours, or whether we shall declare ourselves free and the architects of our own destiny.

Perhaps that will be the best thing that's ever happened to Englandshire. You will be able to spend all your own money without having to subsidise us. You will be able to argue the points of debate in London without interference from our MPs. You will be able to say you are English, not British, and you will be able to embrace your nationality and be proud of who you are...once you have identified those points.

You will have your very own queen to reign over you, and you can be secure in the knowledge that you are all subjects of hers, and you can have all your union flags back from us, if you want them. We may even have a few Tory MPs to spare, if you need them.

I think it will be good for Englandshire to be free of the Scots, and the Welsh. You'll still have a bit of Ireland to keep you all occupied.

Thank you Angus for the info re; the Shetland isles, I always appreciate extra knowledge, now I imagine you will agree with me a newly independent Scotland would surely accede to an independence movements request for an independence referendum in those Isles?
As for the rest of your reply, well what can I say? my mother and her parents were Scottish, as for the timing of the referendum, if you and your countrymen really desire to throw off the yoke of us tyrannical English why wait? vote now and throw off your chains, cast down your manacles, or is it the fear you could end up like Ireland, no, carry on hedging your bets, why rush things when you can carry on having your cake and eating it

[Coley]

I am finding the arguments and counter-arguments all very interesting re: the independence of Scotland etc.

But I really wish someone (who knows how to) could and would split this thread into two so that the also very interesting original thread on wind power could continue on for those of us with no particular axe to grind on the national borders issues.

Happy to be over-ruled if that is not the majority opinion!   

[/quote

Sorry

[SallyintNorth]

Thanks, Coley.  Accepted!   

[doganjo]

Yup, all apologies from you, Coley, also accepted by me    Are you and your parents good swimmers, btw?

[shetlandpaul]

in 1979 or whenever it was Shetland opted to remain in the union. the legal system was based on the rights of the common person. the king was the head of state but he did not own the land. hence the crown estates are a big issue up here. they milk each fish farm and any water born renewables for the uk goverment. this is against udal law were the sea bed belongs to no one.
 

The 1669 Act of Annexation was a Parliamentary Act passed during 1669 by the Parliament of Scotland to establish Orkney and Shetland's status as Crown Dependencies following a legal dispute with William, Earl of Morton, who held the estates of Orkney and Shetland.

The Act made Orkney and Shetland exempt from any "dissolution of His Majesty’s lands". In 1742 a further Act of Parliament returned the estates to a later Earl of Morton, however, the original act of Parliament specifically proscribes this, stating that any such change is to be "considered null, void and of no effect".

The 1669 Act specifically removed Orkney and Shetland from the jurisdiction of the Scottish Parliament and places it firmly in the care of the Crown, restoring the situation as it was 200 years prior at the time of the pawning of the islands by King Christian I of Denmark/Norway to Scotland's James III

intresting reading if you can be bothered
http://www.udallaw.com/udalprogress.htm

[Coley]

in 1979 or whenever it was Shetland opted to remain in the union. the legal system was based on the rights of the common person. the king was the head of state but he did not own the land. hence the crown estates are a big issue up here. they milk each fish farm and any water born renewables for the uk goverment. this is against udal law were the sea bed belongs to no one.
 

The 1669 Act of Annexation was a Parliamentary Act passed during 1669 by the Parliament of Scotland to establish Orkney and Shetland's status as Crown Dependencies following a legal dispute with William, Earl of Morton, who held the estates of Orkney and Shetland.

The Act made Orkney and Shetland exempt from any "dissolution of His Majesty’s lands". In 1742 a further Act of Parliament returned the estates to a later Earl of Morton, however, the original act of Parliament specifically proscribes this, stating that any such change is to be "considered null, void and of no effect".

The 1669 Act specifically removed Orkney and Shetland from the jurisdiction of the Scottish Parliament and places it firmly in the care of the Crown, restoring the situation as it was 200 years prior at the time of the pawning of the islands by King Christian I of Denmark/Norway to Scotland's James III

Very interesting, If there is ever a vote on independence than clearly the Orkney and Shetland Isles should have their own options.

intresting reading if you can be bothered
http://www.udallaw.com/udalprogress.htm