Author Topic: Wind Farms  (Read 54760 times)

AengusOg

  • Guest
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2011, 04:28:35 pm »
Brian is my FIL's name, by the way.

Of course there are those who would want one thing, and many who would not, or would prefer something else, but many of them fall firmly into the NIMBY category.

I can't get my head round those who say they don't want the natural beauty spoiled by such things, yet would risk the health and safety of hundreds of generations to come (if the world lives that long) through the use and disuse of nuclear power. The truth is, if the global population continues to grow at the present rate, there will be very few places of beauty left...they will all be covered in housing and the trappings of human occupation.

There has to come a time soon when huge cuts have to be made to the amount of power consumed both locally and globally. Vast square miles of 24/7 (God how I hate that phrase) lit offices and businesses will surely become a thing of the past. When that happens, and we return to a more primitive lifestyle, without the Jeremy Clarksons and his like telling us what we should aspire to, wind farms will probably meet our needs quite well.

Norfolk Newby

  • Joined Aug 2009
  • West Norfolk, UK
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2011, 05:23:14 pm »
I will stand back slightly from the central issue.

This country needs new power stations. The traditional sort take at least 10 years to get approval, check the environmental impact - that sort of thing, and then construct.

In less than 5 years there will be periods when there isn't enough electricity to meet peak demand. So companies using a lot with have to shut down temporarily which will cost money and jobs. There may also be domestic cuts from time to time. Our politicians have known this and done nothing, each lot leaving it for someone else to pick up.

Back in the 1950's this country got very excited about nuclear power - electricity so cheap it isn't worth charging. Instead we finished up with ever more expensive electricity, partly to pay for the cost of cleaning up the radioactive mess they leave behind.

We now seem to be going flat out to cover the country with wind farms. A recent review of their performance has shown that they only produce 25% of their theoretical maximum and at the time of peak demand (early evening) it is typically less than 10%. This may be because in winter the wind drops after sunset. The same is true if we get high pressure over this country. So it is an unreliable source of electricity.

Around 2000, the dear old politicians agreed to have 10% of this country's electricity produced by renewables in 2010 and 20% by 2020. We missed the first target by miles and will probably miss the second by even more.

Alternative sources of renewable energy (electricity) include burning waste; rubbish, waste from any wood processing industry and from agriculture. This is low grade fuel so it isn't worth moving far. Therefore the power station has to be local and probably small. This will be similar to the wind farm problem. We are all NIMBYs. The is a big row around King's Lynn currently regarding a waste incinerator that will produce power for thousands of homes.

Back around 1980 there was a study regarding building a tidal power barrage across the Severn estuary between North Devon and South Wales. It would have produced as much as a full size coal or oil fired power station twice a day for about 120 years. It would have messed up the beaches on both coasts covering them in mud and probably ended the bird colonies on the Somerset Levels. That killed the project then. It has recently been reviewed and this time it was ruled out on cost. This would be several time that of a conventional/nuclear power station. However, the running cost is low (there is some maintenance required) and it is carbon-free. It also has a long life compared with the alternatives - 3 to 4 times as long, possibly more.

The could be a similar but smaller tidal barrage across the Wash and some of the big river estuaries in Scotland. There are secondary benefits as the barrage acts as a flood barrier and can provide a road link (e.g. Wales to Devon, Lincolnshire to Norfolk).

Th French have had a small barrage (a prototype for the whole idea) across the river Rance in Normandy for about 50 years. See for details:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rance_Tidal_Power_Station

There is still mileage in wave power if anyone can come up with a robust reliable system.

As a last comment, please understand that you need thousands of wind turbines to produce as much electricity as a big power station (Ferrybridge or similar) or a nuclear one. And that is provided there is any wind!






Novice - growing fruit, trees and weeds

AengusOg

  • Guest
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2011, 07:00:37 pm »
This country needs new power stations.

With respect, I think you'll find that is not what we want in Scotland. It's very different here now that the SNP has had a while to make their mark and, with another five years of their government, we can look forward to alternatives to nuclear in this country.

Coley

  • Joined Apr 2011
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2011, 07:09:16 pm »


As a last comment, please understand that you need thousands of wind turbines to produce as much electricity as a big power station (Ferrybridge or similar) or a nuclear one. And that is provided there is any wind!


As has been noted they operate on average at 21/24% capacity, on top of which it takes 15 years to eliminate the carbon footprint  generated by their construction, furthermore there has to be sufficient alternative generating capacity (coal, gas, nuclear etc) available to make up the shortfall.
To add insult to injury the windfarm project was instigated by politicians eager to outdo their rivals in 'green cred' but who were quite happy to see the cost borne by the taxpayers in the form of huge subsidies (added to our electric bills) at a time when our energy costs are at an all time high.
While I totally agree there is an urgent need for clean energy 'wind' is not the answer





Coley

  • Joined Apr 2011
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2011, 07:11:27 pm »
This country needs new power stations.

With respect, I think you'll find that is not what we want in Scotland. It's very different here now that the SNP has had a while to make their mark and, with another five years of their government, we can look forward to alternatives to nuclear in this country.

Coley

  • Joined Apr 2011
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2011, 07:13:42 pm »
This country needs new power stations.

With respect, I think you'll find that is not what we want in Scotland. It's very different here now that the SNP has had a while to make their mark and, with another five years of their government, we can look forward to alternatives to nuclear in this country.

What does the SNP intend to produce Scotlands power?

ellisr

  • Joined Sep 2009
  • Wales
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2011, 07:45:53 pm »
I work for one of the largest companys in the UK for green energy so I know the benefits and i'm all for it and yes most of the largest wind farms are owned by the company I work for and biomass plants

mab

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • carmarthenshire
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2011, 08:54:38 pm »
Well this is a can of worms  :D

problem is that there are too many people with ever increasing energy consumption.

We need to reduce energy consumption not build more power stations.

My feeling of wind farms is that they are a necessary part of the solution to meeting our energy needs. The question of whether they are pretty is irrelevant - although it is the primary motivation of the NIMBYs.

In the last two years the Greenland and Antarctic icesheets have been melting faster even than many of the environmentalists' predictions on global warming had estimated. If we don't reduce our CO2 emissions, large parts of the country will soon be underwater - then the NIMBY's will be the ones demanding why nothing was done sooner.


Quote
We now seem to be going flat out to cover the country with wind farms. A recent review of their performance has shown that they only produce 25% of their theoretical maximum and at the time of peak demand (early evening) it is typically less than 10%. This may be because in winter the wind drops after sunset. The same is true if we get high pressure over this country. So it is an unreliable source of electricity.

true- wind will never provide all our power all the time, but it is quite rare that there is no wind anywhere in the country - so when one windfarm is becalmed another one elsewhere in the country will be producing power. It doesn't matter if a windmill isn't producing 100% of it's rated output - they were never expected to - what matters is that they are reducing the amount of power produced by fossil fuels.

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now the cost of all this wind power               nuclear power is sold for approx 5 pence per unit or cheaper it may not be the safest or the most pretty of constructions           but compared to wind power that is sold for 25 pence per unit and is not available 24/7 is a lot cheaper

But that's because nuclear is very substantially subsidised - Alas I don't have figures to quantify how much. While windmills do have a significant carbon footprint (the large concrete base in particular) it is small compared to the cost of construction and decommissioning of nuclear power stations (do you have any idea how many 1000 tons of concrete go into the construction of a nuclear plant?) - let alone the cost of containing nuclear waste - and if you factor in the possible costs incurred in the event of a nuclear accident it gets even worse. Also, even though the mill itself had a lifetime of 25yrs, the concrete base (if properly constructed) can probably be re-used for the mills' replacement.

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While I totally agree there is an urgent need for clean energy 'wind' is not the answer

Then what is?

Alas there's no easy answer to that question. And probably no single 'right' answer.

IMHO:

There are too many people - well there's no morally acceptable quick solution to that problem.

The first part of the answer is reducing our consumption (substantially) - insulation, and turning things off. I think we are going to have to get used to living with a lot less. Not just electricity, but transport fuel too.

Fuel for shipping goods (though perhaps not food & medicine) should be taxed - we shouldn't be shipping ore halfway across the world to be turned into metal, then shipping ingots again to where they are turned into machine parts only to ship them back to where they are going to be used. We should be encouraging local production and manufacturing - that's not patriotism - it's simple common sense.

On a more local level we've got a crazy system in parts of this country where high earners who work in the towns live out in the countryside buying up all the rural property, which forces the people who work in agriculture (i.e. in the countryside) to live in the cheaper town properties. It's utter madness to have these people commuting past each other every day.

the trouble is, while it's easy to see these problems, straightening them out is problematic.

m


AengusOg

  • Guest
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2011, 10:43:00 pm »

What does the SNP intend to produce Scotlands power?

We'll just have to wait and see, won't we? I don't think it will be nuclear though somehow. If it was me, I'd have lots and lots of wind turbines along our side of the border, all facing south, so that we could generate all of our electricity needs from the hot air coming out of Englandshire, especially after the demise of the union. :D ;D :P
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 10:44:41 pm by AengusOg »

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
  • Qui? Moi?
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2011, 12:09:13 am »

What does the SNP intend to produce Scotlands power?

We'll just have to wait and see, won't we? I don't think it will be nuclear though somehow. If it was me, I'd have lots and lots of wind turbines along our side of the border, all facing south, so that we could generate all of our electricity needs from the hot air coming out of Englandshire, especially after the demise of the union. :D ;D :P
Brilliant thinking, I'm with you! ;D
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

Bionic

  • Joined Dec 2010
  • Talley, Carmarthenshire
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2011, 12:55:55 am »
I have no problem with the look of wind turbines. In fact I quite like to see them. The problem is the noise from them that you just can't get away from.
Life is like a bowl of cherries, mostly yummy but some dodgy bits

Fi

  • Joined Mar 2011
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2011, 08:33:59 am »
Scanned through this thread with interest. I think the biggest problem with them is the unknown. When an applicAtion pops up in your area the fear is that you just don't know how these things are going to affect your life. The other biggest unknown is the health implications. There is evidence out there that these things cause quite severe symptoms of I'll health leading to serious complications. Our government is doing a good job at the moment of ignoring warnings. The World Health Organisation is recommending that no turbine should be located within 2km of a dwelling to prevent these health issues.
Farmers are being approached all the time, and the carrot is the pennies! My problem with this is that the farmer then does not need to farm and land is left idle.
I am pretty much on the fence with them but really don't think they are the answer.
The real problem facing us is population growth and demand for energy. We need to tackle these issues. What bothers me more than erection of turbines is the colossal loss of quality agricultural land to low quality housing. I don't know the figures but acres and acres are torn up everyday reducing this countries ability to produce food. It's crazy.

loosey

  • Joined May 2010
  • Cornwall
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2011, 09:21:30 am »
I work for a renewable energy compony as ellisr does. We need more power and I would prefer it to come from a renewable source but the government are making things increasingly difficult for developers now, with the change in the Feed-In Tarrif. We have lots of turbines in Cornwall ... I don't mind them and livestock can still graze around them etc so apart from visually, the impact on the land is minimal.

I just can't understand why people would be so against further sites ... I'm not keen on seeing fields and fields of pilons, or the local water treatment works, but I understand that their essential for the things that I take for granted.

Coley

  • Joined Apr 2011
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2011, 09:42:18 am »

What does the SNP intend to produce Scotlands power?

We'll just have to wait and see, won't we? I don't think it will be nuclear though somehow. If it was me, I'd have lots and lots of wind turbines along our side of the border, all facing south, so that we could generate all of our electricity needs from the hot air coming out of Englandshire, especially after the demise of the union. :D ;D :P
Ah, no change then, you still intend to sponge off rely on the english should 'independence' come about

Coley

  • Joined Apr 2011
Re: Wind Farms
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2011, 09:56:42 am »

Then what is?

Alas there's no easy answer to that question. And probably no single 'right' answer.

IMHO:

There are too many people - well there's no morally acceptable quick solution to that problem.

While there are no 'easy answers' the total reliance on wind  for our energy needs is certainly not the answer, tidal turbines should recieve as much encouragment as possible as should other forms of sea powered generation, biomass? yes if it is produced on poor quaility land and not prime arable, waste incinerators (including sewage, as is done in scotland) ar another possible part of the solution, but we would have to exempt ourselves from the relevant EU restrictions, there are many solutions, but the drive to wind, driven purely by the subsidy and high profits wants knocking on the head pronto.
More work on birth contorl in the developing world coiuld also be part of the solution

 

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