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Author Topic: Public right of way over fields  (Read 3282 times)

tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Public right of way over fields
« on: August 14, 2018, 10:06:10 am »
Hi,


I am prospectively purchasing a property that has land. The land has a public right of way. The ROW enters the boundary from an access track and goes in one direction, following a river and then cutting diagonally across a field and on to someone else's land. In the other direction it follows a green pathway (separating "my" land from the neighbours), and then appears to go slightly into what would be my field, then on through the next three fields (all the while keeping close to the edge) and terminating back at the main road.

The seller says they don't have many people using the footpath. They said the one that goes along in the fields has been unused and alledgedly has no terminus to the main road as the occupants of the property at the far end were not aware of it and blocked it off. On an older map I believe I can see the footpath going through their property but on the council website the footpath veers off to the main road before getting to them, so I guess they might've been aware and applied to have it redirected (therefore it does have an end). Apparently, someone, I presume the council, came to replace/install two stiles going from the path, into the field, and then into the next field, but after this it is mostly overgrown with trees and bushes so you couldn't walk through anyway. The seller says they pointed this out but didn't have much of a response, although I note that the rules state that it is the landowner's responsibility to keep a pathway clear.

Neither footpath is near the property itself, but it is something that I have never been that keen on. Has anyone had any problems with footpaths on their land, either with users or the council? Would it be possible for the council to enforce a change to the route whether we liked it or not?

I don't know whether I am worrying about something of nothing.

I have heard of some sort of indemnity insurance - I don't fully understand, but think it is something to do with this sort of thing. Has anyone heard of it, or have it?

Many thanks for any help you can offer... starting to think I'm never going to find a new home  :'(

Scotsdumpy

  • Joined Jul 2012
Re: Public right of way over fields
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2018, 10:32:46 am »
Hi TT - not sure I can help other than point you to the gardenlaw forum which deals with your query. I live in Scotland and there is a right to roam up here, basically one can wander willy nilly on people's property - with certain caveats. Personally I wouldn't let a ROW stop me considering a property, especially if you say the path is not near your house. I think the problem would be if you blocked the footpath or didn't keep it clear then you might fall foul of 'walkers' demanding their right of way. Another problem would be if you kept animals - dog worrying and idiots would be a concern.

good luck with your property search - there is no perfect place and you will probably have to compromise wherever you settle. I'd choose a ROW over nasty neighbours any day! Others will no doubt disagree!!!

landroverroy

  • Joined Oct 2010
Re: Public right of way over fields
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2018, 10:59:51 am »
Trouble is TT that the vendors are obviously going to say that not many people use the footpath! But it only takes one to make your life a misery.


I personally wouldn't touch anything where anyone else has any rights over your land. The rights of way laws are such that effectively people using your land have more rights over it than you have. Speaking from experience, it gets so you become paranoic about everyone that crosses your land, even the decent ones, and life is too short to be constantly under that sort of stress.


Don't despair - there  will be the perfect place for you. :thumbsup:  If it takes a year to find it - isn't it worth it in the long run, rather than spending the rest of your life living with second best?
Rules are made:
  for the guidance of wise men
  and the obedience of fools.

bj_cardiff

  • Joined Feb 2017
  • Carmarthenshire
Re: Public right of way over fields
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2018, 11:21:08 am »
I think it depends on the size of the property your buying. If its 30 acres split into 10 fields and it only affects two fields I wouldn't let it bother me too much. If its a smaller holding and affects most of the fields it would bother me and affect the way I used the land.

From what you say, it sounds like it only really affects one field? Could you fence in the path in the other fields if its skirts the boundary?

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Public right of way over fields
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2018, 11:36:12 am »
I think you’ve said you are wanting sheep, so a public RoW could give you constant stress if you get walkers, especially with dogs, crossing your land.

However, many rights of way are very poorly used, and it would be a shame to pass up an otherwise very suitable place if it is indeed a very lightly used one.

Personally I’d go and chat to other locals, especially any you see out and about with their dogs, and see if you can get a feeing as to whether you’re likely to see walkers two or three times a year, or a month, or a week. ;).

Dog and sheep-wise, if the path is only likely to be lightly used in summer, and the place is otherwise very suitable, you might think it’s worth it.  Especially if you have enough different areas you could keep ewes with lambs off those areas at times when walkers might be likely to cross ;)
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Penninehillbilly

  • Joined Sep 2011
  • West Yorks
Re: Public right of way over fields
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2018, 01:29:02 pm »
I think if the rest of the property is what you want I'd go for it, if the path turns out to be a problem, you could fence it? and apply to have the diagonal path rerouted along the edge of the field, and fence it.  or make it into 2 fields, might be more useful in long run. But check out minimum path width allowed.
Bearing in mind if you apply to reroute, yellow planning notice boards would be put up and may attract walkers!

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Public right of way over fields
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2018, 03:33:34 pm »
I used to be on the Rights of Way committee where I lived near Devizes.

First of all, unless things have changed in the last 12 years, it will cost upwards of £400 just to apply to change the route.  This is to cover the Council’s costs in publishing the notices in the local newspapers etc.

Secondly, again unless things have changed recently, there needs to be a compelling reason to change the route.  Examples of reasons that don’t work include :

- I don’t like walkers on my land
- I keep sheep in that field
- I lamb in that field
- I keep an aggressive bull in that field
- I grow crops in that field

Etc etc.  Some farmers apply for and get a permission to reroute a path for a period of time each year, eg for lambing or for a particular crop, but in general you just have to lump it.

Proposing to make (at your own expense) a new route that’s wheelchair-friendly might help. 
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Re: Public right of way over fields
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2018, 05:29:38 pm »
Trouble is TT that the vendors are obviously going to say that not many people use the footpath! But it only takes one to make your life a misery.

This was my thought originally - they're not going to say "yeah, there's loads of them and they're a real pain". The path itself did not exactly look well-used. It wasn't down-trodden or anything. I wish I'd walked up it a bit though, didn't think at the time, and now I'm a 3-hour drive away (so asking neighbours etc is out as well).

I live in Scotland and there is a right to roam up here, basically one can wander willy nilly on people's property - with certain caveats.

I thought about this too. I also compared it to if you lived on a road in a town where there's a public footpath outside your door (which I have also done), and you don't think anything of it. But then I suppose that's not "your" land. It must be to do with the thought of owning something and having to allow others on it?

I've been looking for over a year now and have just withdrawn from another purchase with much less acreage that was in poor condition. I didn't stop looking/viewing properties so deep down I knew it wasn't right. Now this one has come along and there are a couple of things I said I didn't want (footpaths and access via a track shared with other properties), but I like the property itself and what comes with it (about 16 acres, outbuildings, etc etc).

So, no one would be walking passed my window. It's only on the edges and the diagonal bit across the field. I am wary of idiots, especially with dogs, and as you say people bleating on about their "rights". There is plenty of room to move animals to another field, although I don't really want to have to keep one empty just in case someone walks in it.

So frustrating. The market is so competitive at the moment it doesn't give you a chance to think.

Basically I have to think to myself can I live with the thought that someone might be walking on "my" property. The current owners have been there over 20 years so if it was that awful I'd guess they'd have moved by now... I just don't know!

Backinwellies

  • Global Moderator
  • Joined Sep 2012
  • Llandeilo Carmarthenshire
    • Nantygroes
    • Facebook
Re: Public right of way over fields
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2018, 07:14:09 pm »
Think Id be rather more worried about a joint access track probably.... depending on where property is.... on edge of large urban area with lots of dog walkers footpaths would be nightmare  …. very rural with plenty of places to walk not really an issue.
Linda

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Buttermilk

  • Joined Jul 2014
Re: Public right of way over fields
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2018, 07:15:32 am »
We had a footpath which went halfway down a field side then diagonally across the field.  Not much use but two regular walkers every week with a well behaved dog on a lead.  However the irregular walkers were always straying off the route and allowed their dogs to crap all over the field, and the next door field too.  The packs of "organised" ramblers groups were the worst as they "knew" the route and never even apologised when shown that they were two fields away from the path.  Then there were the young souls who were doing their D of E, both knackered and lost.

The farm was sold along with the path and the first thing the new owners did was to take down the signposts and lay them in the hedge bottom so there is little chance of walkers finding the diagonal path.  As we have sheep fenced the field alongside the path which we kept there have been no stray people in our patch but a lot have wandered into the yard wanting directions.

Most walkers are no trouble but the troublesome ones are a right pain.  It would not put me off buying the place but I would want to pay a reduced amout for the acres of the fields the path goes through.

Black Sheep

  • Joined Sep 2015
  • Briercliffe
    • Monk Hall Farm
Re: Public right of way over fields
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2018, 09:22:51 pm »
We bought our place last year that has footpaths through it. One leads along the lane we're on, through the yard (which is really just a driveway) and down the grassy track between the fields, through the bottom corner of one and then into the woods. Never really have any problems with this one apart from the occasional dog walker that doesn't pick up. We started closing the gate on the track just to get people used to it being like that and the land being in use again. Nobody has left it open in 10 months since.

The second footpath branches off from the first and leads down the edge of one field, but people were always taking a short cut diagonally across the field as there was no fence between it and the track. We have now fenced along the edge of the track, cutting off that diagonal option and it is growing over.

Overall the walkers that come through are either locals that live in the hamlet or hikers. Never any significant bother so far and many are interested in what we're doing on the farm (although we can easily escape out of sight if needs be!).

The council gave us two self-closing galvanised footpath gates on the proviso we installed them (look online but the general guidance is they have to pay 25% of any footpath gate replacement costs). The gates were worth £250-300 each, plus they left a handful of useful fittings. That enabled us to replace an ageing, part-rotten stile and kissing gate (although digging them out was hard work!) and means we know that gates aren't going to get left open. We bought some warning signs off Amazon and put them up strategically to remind people about keeping dogs on leads around sheep etc.

You do need to make sure you have public liability insurance, but you still need it even if you don't have footpaths.

Also, when buying a house owners are obliged to disclose any problems they have had and give you honest answers. So I'd suggest that if you are looking to proceed that your solicitor asks the questions in writing and gets an answer that would be legally binding. Of course proving that it wasn't true if you later discover problems would be tricky, but it does stop some people misleading you that all is well when it isn't. Definitely go and knock on near neighbours' doors and ask them what it is like and whether there have been issues. We managed to bump into our (now) neighbour when we viewed the place and got really useful information from them. Plus if there is a public footpath then it means you are entitled to use it, so walk past as often as you can manage to get there, take a picnic and sit and watch what happens a few times if you can. You'll soon get a feel for things - although appreciate that doing that from 3 hours away isn't going to be easy.

tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Re: Public right of way over fields
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2018, 02:45:37 pm »
Thanks Black Sheep, sounds pretty similar to our potential property. I've read about "landowners' liability insurance and that everyone with land should have it as even if someone is trespassing they can still come after you if they hurt themselves. Ridiculous but apparently true! Do you know if your premium was more compared to average from having the footpaths running over your land, because of having more people walking on it and therefore having the potential to injure themselves? Was it expensive? Hope you don't mind me asking...

I get in two minds about the footpaths. One part of me thinks I never wanted people having the "right" to walk through my land, the other part thinks it's not really that bad if I like the property and the land! I think we could certainly fence off the route that seems to go into the field and over the next three (although as I think I said after the first field it's pretty much impassable, and obviously no one's complained about it), but the other one that cuts diagonally would be splitting the field in two. If I did do this I thought about planting an orchard on the far side (between the boundary and the footpath), then the other side joins the rest of the land anyway. At least that would stop wandering. Although it's not a straight diagonal I wonder if there would be any objection as long as the width was correct?!

At the moment, as backinwellies has mentioned, the access track will probably be the main thing to get clarification on. So we will wait and see...

Black Sheep

  • Joined Sep 2015
  • Briercliffe
    • Monk Hall Farm
Re: Public right of way over fields
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2018, 08:00:45 pm »
Do you know if your premium was more compared to average from having the footpaths running over your land, because of having more people walking on it and therefore having the potential to injure themselves? Was it expensive? Hope you don't mind me asking...

Sorry no idea if it was more expensive because of the footpaths or not.

We "took over" an existing NFU policy that covers a lot of things including the public liability (£10m cover - the usual recommended figure), some machinery and equipment, livestock and transport, employers liability (even if you have a friend help out for free you need this), environmental liability and so on. Will be doing some more price comparisons this year but are paying £570 for the year at the moment. We have 45 acres including woodland and steep slopes/former quarry land.

 

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